Monday, January 14, 2013

Traditional Dating Advice: Theory and Practice.

The other day, Dalrock linked to a commentator at Zippy's blog who was taking the manosphere to task:
…the problem is that the roissysphere stands on the shoulders of giants and claims to feel the soil beneath it’s feet. These nonsense, sloppy terms like solipsism, feminine imperative, team woman, “game” are ideas with no rigor, as imprecise as the dull minds that conjure them up.
Yet all across the roissysphere no single red pill person ever recommends learning the precise terms of the great works of the ages, instead offering a bag of bullsh&t and telling you to read the rantings of a keyboard warrior from DC.
What a hollow existence it is to work oneself into a fey mood inventing tools (which they call game) to climb a mountain only to find the mountain was already home to greater men then they, and could have used tools of higher quality if they had bothered to look.
Comments like these give me a fair of hope since they indicate the beginnings of a shift in some of the traditionalist positions on Game.  As some wag once said, when a theory is first proposed, it is denied initially, accepted gradually and finally accepted as a self-evident truth. Now it appears that some of the traditionalists, whilst still shouting at the manosphere, are claiming that the knew about hypergamy all along. Implied in this position is that if only men read the "classics" they wouldn't have to go to places like Roissy's and the reason why men are in there current predicament is because they have forgotten their heritage.  To which I reply--- bullshit.

Literature is not my strong point and I have to defer to others on the subject, particularly commentator Thursday, who over at Roissy's, in replies to two posts,  gave a good explanation of why the classics are deficient in practical advice with regard to "woman management". (Some of the comments I've taken out of chronological order but not out of context.)
Thursday comments:
I’ve posted before on my own former blog about how game insights were few and far between in classic literature.
I think a lot of it came down to a couple facts:
1. Being a provider used to matter a lot.
2. Objective social status (king, nobleman, knight, yeoman, peasant) mattered a lot.
3. Basically everything was social circle game. You would know everybody in your local community (or in you social strata if you were a higher up).
Not that game didn’t matter, but more on the margins. Who needs game when you’re a nobleman and you want to bang one of your serfs? Who needs game when you are a middle class farmer and your only chance with a girl is to convince her father you’d be a good husband? So, the game insights remained fragmentary.
and responding to GBFM:
Keep on digging, little man. Game is more than just confidence, it’s a highly specific skill set. Saying, “Act like a Homeric hero” ain’t gonna cut it.
From personal experience, given the choice between The Mystery Method and the entire Western Canon, a man who wants a pretty wife or a girlfriend had best go for The Mystery Method. Even Robert Greene who found inspirtation for his power book in Machiavelli, and for his strategy book in Sun Tzu, said that he basically had to start from scratch with his seduction book.
A lot of the canon is actually counterproductive. Dante is the king of oneitis and he has had many, many followers.
Having read most of the Canon, the most helpful works would be Madame Bovary and Casanova’s Memoirs. A sprinkle of Byron doesn’t hurt. Even Ovid advocates a kind of provider game (lots of presents):
http://www.rooshv.com/more-book-reviews-9
But that’s what worked in those days. It used to be the most efficient way to get a pretty woman was to get rich or go into a prestigious profession, so that’s what people focussed on. Duh.
In reply to Hugh G Reaction:
I’d say the attitudes that allow you to succeed with women often will allow you to succeed in other pursuits as well.
Yes and no, we’ve all known successful men who underperform with or get taken to the cleaners by women. Doing well with women is, to a certain extent, a highly specific skill set.[Ed]
Finally, to quote Thursday again:
“Just read the classics” is the traditionalist version of “Just be yourself.”
A Superior Type, taking offence at Thursday's comments pushed back:
Philistine. You are a monkey with just enough knowledge to know which books in the library to smear feces over for maximum vandalism. Yes, there are manuals for every practical need, from dating in this modern age to fixing the leak in your toilet. But the prissy assumption that proles beneath you can only absorb bullet lists and abbreviated tips is a commentary on your inferior station. The human mind responds to challenge, especially men, when they are sufficiently motivated and properly educated.

Your Vo-Tech utilitarian approach dispenses with the idea of freedom itself, positive no one can handle it because you can’t handle it. An introduction to the deep concepts of human nature liberates men from the need for the step-by-step manuals to life that you are hawking. Those who look at The Divine Comedy and see more than “oneitis” are simply freer than you. They need less specific instruction and more general wisdom, because, as I said above, it’s not rocket science to translate that knowledge, once truly gained, into working tactics applicable to any social milieu. That’s the easiest part.
I want to make a couple of comments with regard to the highlighted bits in this last comment. Firstly, it's front loaded with the liberal idea that there really is no difference in intelligence and ability between men; all that you need to do is provide enough teaching and resources and even the most stupid man will divine what to do in an appropriate circumstance given a thorough and basic theoretical knowledge about women. It's the standard liberal cure for all ills. It is refuted by science and common sense. Secondly, this is a refutation of the Ancient Greek idea of praxis--experience matters, and there is a world of difference between booksmarts and streetsmarts. Thirdly, a lot of guys do have a problem translating booksmarts into streetsmarts and they need things like bullet lists, mentorship and experience to gain mastery of the Techne of love. From the Wiki entry on Techne:
Aristotle defines techne in the following manner:
[S]ince (e.g.) building is an art [techne] and is essentially a reasoned productive state, and since there is no art that is not a state of this kind, and no state of this kind that is not an art, it follows that art is the same as a productive state that is truly reasoned. Every art is concerned with bringing something into being, and the practice of an art is the study of how to bring into being something that is capable either of being or of not being ... For it is not with things that are or come to be of necessity that art is concerned [this is the domain of episteme] nor with natural objects (because these have their origin in themselves) ... Art ... operate[s] in the sphere of the variable.[3]
As an activity, techne is concrete, variable, and context-dependent. As one observer has argued, techne "was not concerned with the necessity and eternal a priori truths of the cosmos, nor with the a posteriori contingencies and exigencies of ethics and politics. [...] Moreover, this was a kind of knowledge associated with people who were bound to necessity. That is, techne was chiefly operative in the domestic sphere, in farming and slavery, and not in the free realm of the Greek polis."
It appears that our Superior Type also needs to re-read his Aristotle. I also think it was Aquinas, in arguing the case for revelation, who stated explicit demonstration of divine truths (and for that matter other truths) was necessary since most men had neither the time nor intellectual capacity to discern these things for themselves. The idea that everyman can work these things out for himself is false. Game is not concerned with the theoretical knowledge of women but of practical aspects of dealing with them.

Thursday makes a strong case against this "traditional wisdom" type of approach.
I said it before in the other thread that while the classics have plenty to say about about how perfidious female nature can be, they have precious little insight into how to get and keep the girl. Dante famously didn’t get the girl and pined after her for 40 years. (He was also, like Plato, a fabulously inept politician.) He was also famously Milton’s first wife left him while his second was a holy terror. He also managed to thoroughly alienate his daughters. All of his vivid warnings about female malice and treachery were not enough to give him any insight as to how they should be handled in real life. So, two of the greatest writers in the Western tradition, writers steeped in the Shakespeare, the Bible and the classics were total betas in their love life.
A good analogy is politics. No doubt there is much wisdom in political writers from Plato to Aristotle to Hobbes and Burke and beyond. But all that doesn’t mean that reading those guys will make you into a good statesman. You fucking need practical knowledge on the ground on how to deal with people.[Ed] And in fact you might be a better statesman if you have some good instincts and read Steven Covey, Dale Carnegie, Robert Greene and Robert Cialdini.
Besides if reading the classics were enough, we’d see Classics majors and Shakespeare and Biblical scholars should be getting the hot chicks. I laugh at that to scorn.
Here are a few more thoughts:
1. In general, it is unwise to assume the ancients were fools and that we are so much better than them, but it is also untrue that we can never learn anything new about human nature.
2. The best game ideas come from relatively minor writers like Ovid (though he’s a bit beta), Castiglione, Casanova. The best of them are probably Byron and Flaubert.
3. I have a theory that patriarchal social structures were set up, at least in part, so that men wouldn’t have to learn game.
I don't agree with Thursday's last point but he's on the ball when it comes to understanding the problem with the Western Canon and intersexual relations. The ideas and insights from the great books were distilled in a time where a woman's ability to freely to chose a mate was severely restricted. As I have argued before on this blog, women were so disenfranchised in the past that all a man had to do was show up--and show that he was available--to have a very good chance at getting a mate. The whole culture was an affirimative action program for non-alpha males.

Thursday recognises the change that female emancipation has made, and of the increasing irrelevance the classics have with regard to practical advice on how to attract a mate.
The modern era is a kind of natural experiment to see how women behave when they don’t have to consider what kind of father/provider a man is when choosing who to mate with. It ain’t your father’s world. Sexual attraction is now the sole criteria. That is a radical change.
Here are some lyrics from Gracie Fields’ song Walter Walter to put this in perspective:[Ed: With regard to women's choices in the past]
Walter, Walter, lead me to the altar
I don’t cost much to keep in food
Walter-er, Walter, mother says you oughta
So take me while she’s in the mood
Walter, Walter, lead me to the altar
And make all me nightmares come true
Walter, Walter, lead me to the altar
It’s either the workhouse or you.
Personally, I think women evaluate there mate choices more holistically. I'd actually rephrase this by saying that the modern era is a time when "feelings" justify all actions and what we are seeing now is the raw expression of female sexuality, essentially unhindered by any type of social restraint.  What's changed now is that men have to work to be attractive because, unlike in the past, women today are free to pass over men whom they don't. It's a problem men haven't had to face before and one the Classics don't seem to give much practical advice on.

435 comments:

1 – 200 of 435   Newer›   Newest»
Jehu said...

The classics, particularly 'Taming of the Shrew', and classic movies---notoriously 'Gone with the Wind', will get you out of what I'll call 'negative Game' if you study them seriously and don't start from the perspective that those old guys knew jack.
Honestly, simply not having Negative Game---which is to say knowing that what is told you by society about what women go for is bullshit---will get you quite a ways. So when someone says a guy has 'zero game', honestly, that's better than most freshly minted teenage boys have.
I think you're onto something when you say that patriarchal society was organized such that a man didn't really need to learn Game. Frankly that makes for a much higher-trust society. The reason is the insights of Game (beyond the 'zero' level) are ALSO the insights of manipulation. These are the dark arts of Franklin, Carnegie, Bernays, et al. It'd probably be a better world if NOBODY knew them or if the practice of them was greeted by abject hostility. But there's no way to put the genie back in the bottle, and some people really are 'naturals' at manipulation.

Johnny Caustic said...

I really, really enjoyed this post. (So much so I hope you will fix the typo in the title.)

I still remember the excitement of the alt.seduction.fast Usenet newsgroup as its writers were discovering the early foundations of game 15 years ago; when Mystery, Maniac High, and their fellow misfits were discovering new, utterly counterintuitive truths about women every week and it all still felt like the Wild West meets the laboratory of Ivan Pavlov and William Shockley. I've always wondered if they were rediscovering the lost wisdom of a forgetful civilization, or genuinely bringing new knowledge into the world for the first time. This post (and Thursday's comments) is the first place I've seen this question addressed at length.

It's both exciting and humbling to learn the evidence that, yes, by the force of their testosterone those young men achieved true originality; that they wrested secrets of human nature untouched by the Great Men of the Western Canon and untouchable by our modern psychology researchers and their ethics committees. Yes, it really happened, in a way nobody would have believed it could happen.

Anonymous said...

"So when someone says a guy has 'zero game', honestly, that's better than most freshly minted teenage boys have."

I agree. As a young man my only game was not knowing some things that the mainstream held as givens.

KK said...

Two quotes from the post:

"It used to be the most efficient way to get a pretty woman was to get rich or go into a prestigious profession, so that’s what people focussed on. Duh."

"What's changed now is that men have to work to be attractive because, unlike in the past, women today are free to pass over men whom they don't."

These paint an interesting nutshell version why women's emancipation and civilizational decline go hand in hand in history. A lot of material and social capital in advanced civilizations has been built by channeling the male sexual drive into constructive purposes.

But nowadays instead of aiming on getting rich or prestigious (and more often than not providing societal value in the process), the best bang for the buck is in manipulating the more primal attraction triggers of women.

This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but in lek.

Jason said...

I think it is a moot point whether or not you can find elements of game in the canon of Western literature, since most young men are either not literary enough or lack the sort of instruction (many American English teachers are mediocre or downright poor) to discover such elements and see them in a proper historic perspective (Perhaps in certain male-only Catholic or private schools young men might be able to realistically receive such instruction). Thus, young men must learn about it from their elders or their peers (or in certain cases, from the Internet). Considering the out-of-wedlock problem in the U.S. though, as well as the unwillingness of many fathers to impart knowledge to their sons, and many young men simply lack the wisdom to make it in the SMP. And considering that it is indeed much harder for men to find a mate today than it was even forty or so years ago – men have to be more pro-active and agile now, for reasons that you mentioned doctor – and we have a real problem on our hands in the West (and it would seem in Asian countries like Japan and Chine as well).

Johnycomelately said...

I wonder if any of the 'giants' have an opinion on herbivores? These are interesting times with very little precedence.

Ingemar said...

Saw this from a facebook friend. To call him a beta is generous:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/funnibunney/noobgetsschooled.png

Anonymous said...

I imagine that many women of earlier times highly resented their choice of Walter or the workhouse to paraphrase the song, & did their utmost to make their unfortunate husbands as miserable as possible. The tavern was commonly a refuge from incessant strife & turmoil then as now.

My observations of those who have married over the years make me heartily thankful that I never married & can freely enjoy the peace & tranquillity of single blessedness. Too many young fellows seem to think that if only they could marry, that they would thereby enter into a sort of terrestrial paradise, that they would no longer suffer those evils which must plague us until we shuffle off this mortal coil. Whence such a risible idea comes I don't know.

The experience is much more like being made into a combination cart-horse/dancing bear. The man is there to dispense money & to entertain a person who is very often an ungrateful petulant over-grown spoiled brat. If they realised this they wouldn't be so quick to put their head in the noose.

The Social Pathologist said...

@Jehu

I don't think Game is manipulation. Women are designed to be drawn to men with certain traits and Game is about identifying those traits and learning how to acquire and realise them.

It also needs to be remembered that a woman finds happiness when in the company of a man with those traits. Women were designed by God to have hypergamic tendencies and the task for men then is to ensure that do their best to acquire those which satisfy them.

@Johnny Caustic

Thanks for the tip about the typo. I had to look at the post for about 10mins before seeing it.

I think something profound is happening here. I'm of the opinion that "official" conservatism is dead and its rebirth is being achieved through unorthodox avenues simply because the orthodox avenues of conservatism are not open to new ideas. But this has it advantages as well. Had the ideas arisen from a mainstream conservative source it would have been subject to an attack by the media/arts/entertainment complex. But being being off the radar and promulgated through web posts and blogs i.e. out of the mainstream media, no one was there to censor the discussion or drown it out. It almost is an underground movement. It really is an exciting time.

Anon@2:06

Not doing anything dumb is half the battle.

@KK
A lot of material and social capital in advanced civilizations has been built by channeling the male sexual drive into constructive purposes.

Disagree. Sex is important but not that important. Some of the great discoveries were the for the fun or it or due to real curiosity.

@Jason

I think it's a real problem. Women can complain about their being a lack of good men but the problem is far harder for a serious Christian man. I mean a man committed to the faith has real problems finding a good woman. They are a scare product too.

@Johnnycomelately.

These are interesting times with very little precedence.

Yep, we're on our own now though histories which document civilisation in decline may help with what to do.

@Anon 8:43
I imagine that many women of earlier times highly resented their choice of Walter or the workhouse to paraphrase the song, & did their utmost to make their unfortunate husbands as miserable as possible.

I have a great marriage on all levels. She is really is a good girl and I regard my marriage as a blessing. A good woman is really an amazing companion and one of the joys of life. But I do try to be a good husband to her and I'm better husband to her since I've applied some of the concepts of game.

I think one of the reasons why traditional marriages may have been miserable is simple because the sexual dynamic through which game works was neglected. Women are nicer to men who push their hypergamous buttons.

Thursday said...

I wonder if any of the 'giants' have an opinion on herbivores?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblomov

But you have to be fairly rich to just hole up in a man cave.

Thursday said...

I imagine that many women of earlier times highly resented their choice of Walter or the workhouse

Some did, but others seem to have ended up really loving their beta husbands:

'On the whole, marriage was practical, down-to-earth, inevitable. Gracie Fields's famous song "Walter, Walter, take me to the altar" – with its killer last line, "Marry me, make all me nightmares come true" – is illuminatingly quoted: "It's either the workhouse or you."

Romantic it wasn't: "No, romance – romance is another thing," says Elma. "But I loved him; I loved him very . . . and I could do with him now. I could do with him now. I could."

Love is the word that becomes gently insistent in the last section of the book. Many interviewees define sex as "the giving of love" rather than the receiving of pleasure; through having sex "they provided their partner with a thrilling experience, a sense of being cared for and confirmation that they were loved. They become wonderfully eloquent. Asked if she and her husband had explored different positions sexually, Dora says: "Nope. Nope. No, no, no. I don't think you have to do it if you love one another . . . really and truly my married life was, was lovely with him. He really. He was gentle. He was kind. He was everything that I wanted in a man . . . it was just pure love."'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/mar/12/sexual-revolution-england-szreter-fisher-review

GK Chesterton said...

So I have some mixed feelings on this. Obviously the posters you are addressing are mental midgets, however I do believe the Classics have insights into human sexual nature from which you could draw "Game" conclusions.

For example Circe in the Odyssey is an example of "Bad Boy" game working. Post assault she becomes positively infatuated and throws all her feminine wiles at holding Odysseus.

There are more examples like these that I think are useful to men. Even "Pride and Prejudice" I think has some very good overall pointers that can be read in a "Game" light (Darcy for example only apologizes at metaphysical gunpoint). Jehu's comments on other major works are also useful.

My major quibble with you post is your discussion of women as "emancipated". This is one of those half-truths that bugs me. They are as still bound by their curse today as they were thirty years ago and will not escape. Women vote safety (non-emancipation) when they are single. They seek controlling bad boys. They aren't and never will be emancipated except by law.

So what to do with a legal fiction that creates psychic frustration?

KK said...

I wrote:
A lot of material and social capital in advanced civilizations has been built by channeling the male sexual drive into constructive purposes.

You answered:
Disagree. Sex is important but not that important. Some of the great discoveries were the for the fun or it or due to real curiosity.

I actually agree with you, and I intended to convey the same point you make by using the term 'a lot' in my comment. The male drive to succeed, innovate and discover is powerful in itself, even when it is not directed towards sexual goals.

Thursday said...

The classics do have many good insights, but they tend to be either very general or very fragmentary.

mdavid said...

I want to second what Johnny Caustic said.

I've studied many, many subjects over the years, and thought I couldn't be surprised much anymore. But the whole world of game blogs was a revelation to me. And I'm still learning.

Simon Grey said...

@SP- OT, but could you tell me your email address again? I got kicked off my old email client, and had to switch to gmail, and didn't have the opportunity to save my contact. Thanks.

The Social Pathologist said...

@Simon

Slumlord-at-optusnet-dot-com-dot-au.

@Thursday.

The classics do have many good insights, but they tend to be either very general or very fragmentary.

As I said before, the classics aren't my strong point, but most of the descriptions of alpha behaviour that I have seen have been context specific and lots of guys just can't extract the lesson from situation.

Thanks for the link to the Guardian article. It really shows just how much the dating game has changed--(and relations between the sexes). I thought this snippet was illuminative and in agreement with previous posts on my blog.

In some important respects, they find that "some of our respondents did not find themselves enjoying sex despite their 'inhibited' and private culture, but because of it."

Still, it's quite interesting to see just how many couples were able to develop a deep love, despite the absence of romance, just by staying married (though I think other psychological factors are at play here). I've heard similar stories from couples from arranged marriages.

@GKC

Obviously the posters you are addressing are mental midgets,

Yes they are, but so is the mass of humanity. I think one of the most common errors that people who have some sort of intellectual life make is in believing they're just like everyone else--they're not. Most men are well meaning morons who don't have the slightest idea of how to fix their predicament. Asking them to divine the truths of attraction by distilling the wisdom of the classics well is.......unrealistic and beyond their intellectual capacities. Just look at how people misinterpret things about game even when explicitly laid out.

This is one of those half-truths that bugs me.

Could you elaborate? In what way is it a half-truth?

I need to remind you that the labor party in the U.K. was voted to power before women had the right to vote. Men can vote for safety as well. Chamberlain got cheered by an awful lot of men when he returned from Munich

Mike T said...

As I have argued before on this blog, women were so disenfranchised in the past that all a man had to do was show up--and show that he was available--to have a very good chance at getting a mate. The whole culture was an affirimative action program for non-alpha males.

I think you are missing a critical distinction here between affirmative action and what you are comparing to: affirmative action only benefits the recipient who is not being restricted. That is, it benefits the minority or the woman, not the non-minority or male.

In this case, women also strongly benefited by having less to worry about with regard to adultery among other things since a married man would have to go through a single woman's male relatives to get to her "safely." They could do it on the sly, but that would be tremendously dangerous in many classical cultures.

Mike T said...

Oy, blogger stripped out my <em/> and <strong/> tags. First time that's ever happened...

Anonymous said...

I'm one of the traditionalists that believes that the Bible has enough cautionary lessons in it to sufficiently teach men about the fallen nature of not only themselves, but also of women. If some think modern 'game' can supplement that, then so be it.

Two reasons(that stand out) for the current morass we find ourselves in are: (1) we are living in a period of general moral decay and so what we see regarding intersexual relations shouldn't be a surprise; and (2) we have new technologies that, among other things, are useful tools that help us act quickly and under the radar(I'm thinking about how they can be used to hook up or commit adultery).

I believe the men who came before us were not 'beta' shlubs that were lucky to have a woman; and that we've currently stumbled onto some recently discovered facts of female sexual nature is a bit questionable. But like I wrote earlier, if game can help a man to think more clearly when dealing with woman, then that's good too.

Herbie

Thursday said...

all a man had to do was show up--and show that he was available

It was more than just showing up though. He had to show he would be a good provider.

GK Chesterton said...

Women can't be emancipated. It is impossible as they were designed to be our helpmeets. We can "give" them power but that's an abdication not an emancipation. No one is better off as the disciples of Game have noted. Women without a grounding in a civil society don't do well. I'm in the minority in that I believe men being domesticated also has its advantages as I prefer not to be overwhelmed by sex starved twenty somethings on the warpath. However, the problem right now is with a form of false emancipation.

In saying this I'm not arguing that men don't do stupid and evil things, we own Hitler, Dalmer, Stalin, Mao, Attila (who when I was a child I assumed was a girl with that "a"), Blackbeard, and a host of others as well as Chamberlain.

Nor will there not be outliers. Margret Thatcher was amazing and Catherine of Aragon was able to mitigate absolute disaster in a way few men could.

So here's my disagreement with you (as far as I understand it). You posit that men should man up, which I agree with. You also posit that there is some good to the current state as the previous generation had a "affirmative action program". I propose that those two beliefs are in conflict. If men are to man up then they will lead (and sometimes if not often bumble).

I further claim that the affirmative action program was anything but as it required almost all men in all stages of society to try to exhibit something like the Cursus Honorum (in fact I'd go further as to posit that one of the reasons that we still know what this means is that it is only a few decades dead). That in engaging proactively in civil society they were expected to get wives, and dedicated willing helpmeets of wives, but that if they failed to engage in civil society they were not expected to get wives. That in fact chivalry, that oft bemoaned thing here in the androsphere, demanded that they _couldn't_ get wives and could result in violent action if they attained "weak willed women" (cf. St. Paul).

Either Peter Pans exist in some form or they don't. If they do they undermine the theory of affirmative action as they imply that men can be found to be not worthy of matrimony.

The Social Pathologist said...

@Herbie

I believe the men who came before us were not 'beta' shlubs that were lucky to have a woman; and that we've currently stumbled onto some recently discovered facts of female sexual nature is a bit questionable.

No one is saying that all the men of the past were beta, it's just that mating was so socially regulated, and women were so penalised by not mating, that a beta male (who would have otherwise been unattractive to women) had a good chance of getting a girl with very little effort, especially with regard to his interpersonal skills.

As for new findings with regard to sexuality, there is a quite a bit of a shit fight going on between the shrinks at the moment with regard to DSM criteria re sexual dysfunctions. It appears that recent research with regard to female sexuality has overturned all previous assumptions of it.

@GKC.

Thanks for your reply.

The problem with a beta-patriarchy is while it forces women into a union with betas it frustrates their hypergamic tendencies, hence their marriages tend to be cold affairs. People wonder why the great divorce boom of the 60's hit society like a tidal wave. The fact is many of those traditional marriages were profoundly unhappy. I'm all about encouraging people to want to stay together by fostering attraction, instead of making them stay together by social pressure. (note, social pressure does have its advantages.)

that men can be found to be not worthy of matrimony.

Who gets to define worthiness? Men or women?

The fact that women, when free of inhibition, are not choosing to marry, may mean that some men are not worthy marriage material. I don't understand why this concept meets so much opposition.

With regard to female emancipation, my support for it is based upon experience not abstract theory. I'm no democrat and think egalitarianism is wrong, but is it better to be ruled by a wise woman than a dumb man?

The false emancipation you remark on is being enjoyed by men and women alike. But the current bad behaviour of women is more a reflection of the embrace of the poolside philosophy rather than than a congenital disability.

I think if you could find a wise Christian woman you'll find that she'll still be happier with a Christian Alpha male than a beta one.

Anonymous said...

It appears that recent research with regard to female sexuality has overturned all previous assumptions of it.

Really? All previous assumptions? It will be interesting to read what the researchers conclude those assumptions were.

Anonymous said...

The first sentence of my last post was a quote....and I forgot to 'sign' at the end.

Herbie

The Social Pathologist said...

@ Herbie

The assumption as that female desire was simply a weaker variant of the male. The scientific evidence is increasingly contradicting this and there is convincing evidence that female desire is contextual. i.e it is fired up only in the presence of appropriate stimuli. Particularly alpha stimuli.

See See the Wiki link here.

Anonymous said...

"...female desire is contextual. i.e it is fired up only in the presence of appropriate stimuli."

Of course it needs an appropriate stimuli. I don't know how to prove this, but I would wager that 3,000 years ago women's pussies still got wet in the presence of some stud; and sexual deviancy was not an uncommon occurrence among men and women throughout history.

I still think that female sexual nature is - in general - a weaker variant of the male. That female sexuality is in overdrive points to a moral/spiritual problem moreso than some new psycho-sexual phenomenon that's been discovered. To quote Bishop Sheen: "We've become a nation of patients instead of penitents."

Herbie

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Thursday said...

their marriages tend to be cold affairs

This is highly questionable. The women in that Guardian piece didn't seem to think so.

The Social Pathologist said...

This is highly questionable. The women in that Guardian piece didn't seem to think so.

Cut me a bit of slack Thursday, it's a combox discussion and of course, the breakdown in marriages in the 1960's was multifactoral. Still, female marital dissatisfaction played a big part.

The fact is though, that when men and women are restricted by social and financial pressure with regard to mate choice the quality of their marriage is likely to suffer and I imagine that this played a big role in divorce epidemic of the 60's. The "happy families" of the Forties and Fifty's probably comprised of a group who were genuinely happy with their lot and another, who were quite miserable but unable to escape due to social circumstances.
When morality changed, this latter group ran for the exits. The point is that coercing people into marriage is likely to lead to unhappy marriages.

Here are two fascinating studies I managed to Google this morning.

The first is study on the sexual habits of the Cypriot elderly, noting that those who came from arranged marriages had a lower sexual frequency than those from freely chosen mate marriages. (I think that the girl had the right to veto in an arranged marriage, but it stands as a good proxy for social coercion in marital choice.)

And the second is a study from China/U.S. Looking a marital satisfaction between arranged(socially coerced) and free marriages. Females reported higher rates of marital satisfaction when given free mate choice. (I imagine that is selection for the alpha effect).

Interestingly, the second study was an attempt to validate research done in Japan in the 1960's, looking at happiness in arranged marriages. The data from that time(the 1960's) suggested that the main beneficiaries of arranged were men.

Cane Caldo said...

We can "give" them power but that's an abdication not an emancipation.

By power, you mean authority. Authority is not given away, but given through. Abdication results in dissipation.

One can have power with no authority. (See: John Adams on petticoats.)

GK Chesterton said...

The problem with a beta-patriarchy is while it forces women into a union with betas it frustrates their hypergamic tendencies, hence their marriages tend to be cold affairs.

Not terribly true. We know that attraction matters based on _perceived_ social status. If so then an overall hierarchy that maintains a stiff but not static structure would result in a net gain in attractiveness for men _by_ women.


People wonder why the great divorce boom of the 60's hit society like a tidal wave. The fact is many of those traditional marriages were profoundly unhappy.

Which doesn't matter. Is the state of female happiness greater now should be the question. According to longitudinal surveys the answer is no. If so the tidal wave may be explained by other factors. This could include post-WWII and Korea apathy (we ruined the world why interfere with our wives!). It could also be explained by group pressure (don't you want to be independent? Everyone does!).

I'm all about encouraging people to want to stay together by fostering attraction, instead of making them stay together by social pressure. (note, social pressure does have its advantages.)

I agree, but social pressure does work. The law can "tutor" which is a noble and long held conservative concept. I don't think the current state is better. Indeed I see it as fostering an overall reduction in attraction. This happens for two reasons.

First, women are hypergamous. Where society provides social structure then women are likely to be happier "just because".

Second, men are lion class slackers. If we are not needed we act just like pride lions. We don't move at all outside of those things that are our hobbies. This is part, I think, of the Peter Pan problem. So absent a social structure that says, "we expect this objective to be completed," we happily trundle off to sleep. When this happens our social status declines. When that happens...

Who gets to define worthiness? Men or women?

In the strategic or tactical sense? In the strategic I think men. We do have to winnow our numbers and enforce a certain amount of "questing upwards". Those that are dangerous or otherwise unfit should be selected out (and no I'm not suggesting eugenics but I am proposing classic social pressure to find somewhere else to be).

In the tactical sense _a_ woman. The classic bended knee proposal that is scoffed at in some parts _does_ have advantages. It places, along with other social restraints, a responsibility on women that they did at some point say "yes". So men (and the larger family) winnows while the women _select_.

The fact that women, when free of inhibition, are not choosing to marry, may mean that some men are not worthy marriage material.

I've not met many women who are dating that aren't plotting a wedding. They may be delaying, mostly out of expectation, but even the most hard bitten talks about wedding dresses (always white).

With regard to female emancipation, my support for it is based upon experience not abstract theory. I'm no democrat and think egalitarianism is wrong, but is it better to be ruled by a wise woman than a dumb man?

And yet we've had that for some time. Her Majesty your Queen for example came into her glory prior to the 60's.

Cane Caldo said...

Not terribly true. We know that attraction matters based on _perceived_ social status. If so then an overall hierarchy that maintains a stiff but not static structure would result in a net gain in attractiveness for men _by_ women.

Ohhh! That was a crippling shot from GKC, and the champ is wobbling on his feet. Will SP be able to recover?

mdavid said...

After reading through the comments, I feel folk here are talking past each other and reality both.

Marital "happiness" is never a goal that can be achieved in isolation. Rather, it is genetic success, accompanied by as much material happiness as possible, that creates lifetime satisfaction. The reason for this fact is obvious: the future belongs to those who show up for it.

Women having the tingle for one failed generation does not satisfaction bring them. Even though people here seem to have bought the modernist creed, the practical reality is in fact traditional. As much an affront is is for modernist ears, marriage and sexual relations are Ground Zero for children in the tribe, and happiness only follows from the success of said children. The elephant in the room is that the next generation is always Ground Zero for lifetime satisfaction, especially for women. When those children don't show up, women will quickly decline in happiness. Sure, there are exceptions, but who cares about them? They, and their tribe, are extinct.

Anonymous said...

SP

Obviously I think you dismiss one matter of great importance, so important enabled the rupture and divorce tide that began in the 60.. and that is the cash prices from divorce. If you think that getting half the net worth of your ex, the kids and the simpathy of the sisterhood are not incentives for women, then you are more naive (or blind) than I thought.

If marriages were really between equals before the law (you got out with whatever you brought to the table) I can rest assured many women wouldn´t even think about divorce. Hell even my workmates speak and brag about how older women (acquaintances, friends of relatives) got well off from marriages to relatively wealthy men that ended up badly. And I am only 29.

Anonymous said...

@SP
"I'm no democrat and think egalitarianism is wrong, but is it better to be ruled by a wise woman than a dumb man?"

Excuse me but, a dumb man or a what?

GK Chesterton said...

I skipped answering a question which was tacky.

So would it be better to be ruled by a wise woman or bumbling man?

On that extreme I think it is better to be ruled by a wise woman. If it is an _average_ woman and an _average_ man though I will chose the man every time because history says it will be more stable. Even between a sub-par man and an average woman I'll pick the woman based on Lewis and his dog.

The Jaskologist said...

KK: A lot of material and social capital in advanced civilizations has been built by channeling the male sexual drive into constructive purposes.

Social Pathologist: Disagree. Sex is important but not that important. Some of the great discoveries were the for the fun or it or due to real curiosity.



I have to disagree with you on this one. I think you are falling into the trap of looking only at a few great men thinking their great thoughts and mistaking those for society. Ironically, this is the same error liberals tend to make.

Civilization is still made up by far of the day to day commonplace actions done by commonplace men. Isaac Newtons are important for advancing society, but they can't build it. For that you need the vast bulk of men performing their personal vocations, even if that's just showing up at the factory every day and churning out more widgets. *Especially* if it's just churning out more widgets; society needs those widgets, even though their mass production satisfies no curiosity or sense of fun. Each man's contribution may seem minor, but over the great mass of people they really add up. This is the stuff advanced societies are made of: millions of normal people doing their tiny part. If those men end up deciding that they're better off living unemployed in their father's basement, a la Roosh, society is in trouble.

Give me a land with a thousand decent, hardworking men of below average intelligence any day over a land with 20 Isaac Newtons and 980 hooligans.

The Social Pathologist said...

@GKC

I've been preoccupied with other things so I haven't been able to reply earlier.

If it is an _average_ woman and an _average_ man though I will chose the man every time because history says it will be more stable.

Firstly, why was the question tacky?
(I'll admit the sentence construction was bad.)

Secondly, the average man (or woman) for that matter is an abstract concept whilst each human being is a unique real thing. "Rule of thumb" governance has its benefits but some rules need lots of secondary qualifiers to prevent obvious injustice as consequence of their application.

Take,for example, the disparity between black and white IQ. Whilst the means are separated by approximately one standard deviation, there are a hell of a lot of blacks who have IQ's greater than than the average white. Basing a social policy blindly on averages leads a to a hell of a lot of unhappy people who tend to get mad and want to have their natural rights restored. (i.e justice). Whilst it's impossible to cater to every exception through social policy, the aim is to keep people happy so that the critical mass required for revolution is never achieved.

@The Jaskologist.

Give me a land with a thousand decent, hardworking men of below average intelligence any day over a land with 20 Isaac Newtons and 980 hooligans.

It's just that I don't think that civilisation is a by-product of the channeled male sexual drive. I mean the priesthood of the Catholic Church (let's not get into the merits of Catholic church for the moment) has spent most of its time try to create a civilisation in an environment where the sexual desire is effectively suppressed and it seems to have done pretty well.

Explaining complex things like civilisation as a by product of "one thing" simplifies the issue way too much.

mdavid said...

Jaskologist, Give me a land with a thousand decent, hardworking men of below average intelligence any day over a land with 20 Isaac Newtons and 980 hooligans.

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

GK Chesterton said...

My not answering was tacky not the question. You asked a good question and I didn't answer it in my first pass. The rest I stand by.

A Different Anonymus said...

The multiple comments by Anonymous from 8:41 AM, presumably spam for Alprazolam, are kind of interesting in that the same paragraph seems to have been run through a few different translation programs.

My favorite phrase from this tortured translation was "horror disorder bear".

followed by "go to pieces mix up bear".

the comment at 9:04 AM adds "panic mix up bear".


Not quite the wording I am used to seeing from Big Phrama.

George said...

"I think something profound is happening here. I'm of the opinion that "official" conservatism is dead and its rebirth is being achieved through unorthodox avenues simply because the orthodox avenues of conservatism are not open to new ideas. But this has it advantages as well. Had the ideas arisen from a mainstream conservative source it would have been subject to an attack by the media/arts/entertainment complex. But being being off the radar and promulgated through web posts and blogs i.e. out of the mainstream media, no one was there to censor the discussion or drown it out. It almost is an underground movement. It really is an exciting time."

I've been thinking about this comment quite a bit and you may really be on to something.

Think about the evolution of the "Game community". They started out on usenet with alt.seduction (or something like that), and have since gone semi-mainstream with books, a TV show, workshops, etc.

Given enough time and momentum, maybe the alt-right / reactionaries / neo-Victorians / whatever could actually form into something solid.

Tom said...

The whole idea of dating advice, if one is looking for a serious relationship, is problematic at best.

In advertising, you are trying to increase your market share by altering your product or your customer's perception. Lose a few customers by putting bikini babes in your beer ad? Just fine as long as it nets more customers who find them attractive.

However, when you are trying to find a long-term partner, you are trying to find a *single* customer, and more importantly, one that fits your profile of needs and desires (and whose needs and desires you fit).

Much of dating advice is about trying to to appear attractive to a pool of partners that match the desired characteristics of the *author* of that advice.

That's fine, as long as you know what you're getting. Game experts are fine as long as you know you're competing for partners who are easily controlled through insecurity and mostly concerned about appearances and status.

Where such advice becomes toxic is when readers feel that there is such uniformity among women (or men) that any advice can be broadly useful.

Most of us understand how the advice to a woman looking for a serious long-term relationship to get breast implants would be ludicrous (unless any man will do, perhaps). The handful of men who are actually potentially desirable partners may have completely different reactions because, you know, men differ.

Yet, as men, we are constantly barraged with dating advice that assumes a uniformity in women that's equally ridiculous.

I understand why advice is offered. Successful gamers are desperate for the status given by the adulation of large number of romantically unsuccessful males. I'm just not certain why such advice is accepted.

Jim @ OceansOfPeople.com said...

Even today, women are looking for securities in terms of financial. That is why some women are attractive to men who has a nice job.

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Michael said...

My two cents on a tangent,
I think men in other time periods had a more general level of "alpha". Not all alpha is social status or money. More dangerous work, little to no obesity, surviving in a rough society where self assertion was a must (a peasant may not be able to compete with a lord, but he spent much of his time competing with other peasants). I like to think our foremothers weren't all completely unmoved by our forefathers.

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