Sunday, January 06, 2013

Marx and the Feminine Imperative.


Cultural Marxism is a term bandied about quite loosely in the manosphere and the imprecision in it's use causes much confusion. For some, Cultural Marxism is a term to describe the progressive leftward shift of culture, for others it's an analytic approach used to understand the world. In this latter instance, the term that really should be used is Conflict Theory (itself heavily influenced by Marxism). If you want to know why Feminists, Fat Advocates  and MRA's sound the same it's because they both explain the world with near identical variants of the same approach.

In essence, Conflict Theory posits the existence of identifiable groups who exist to exploit others for their own benefit. It's akin to the Marxist notion of the bourgeois setting up society in order to exploit the workers. Note, Conflict Theory doesn't admit the existence of any legitimate theory of social structures, seen also such structures as exploitative, hence the person who uses this approach will be profoundly anti-authoritative. Conflict theory can thus count on anyone who wants to push radical equality (Communists, Femminsts, Anarchaists, Libertarians etc) for a sympathetic hearing.

As a theory of social analysis, it's a tailor made cognitive solution for the simpleton common man in trying to understand his troubles. It absolves any responsibility for any problem because it's always someone else's fault. They after all are "oppressed." The solution to all problems involves getting rid of the oppressors and once that happens, a nirvana of happiness will ensure. When it doesn't, the task at hand is to find another group that is doing the oppressing, and thus the circle of conflict continues.

Now, the reason why I've bought this subject up, is because the term has been bandied about with respect to the phenomenon of the Feminine Imperative. Critics of the the concept of the Feminine Imperative have labeled it a product of Cultural Marxism, by which I think they mean Conflict Theory. Now, I've actually had  a hard time trying to grasp what exactly this Feminine Imperative is, so has SunshineMary, but I'm going to go with Rollo's definition of it;
For one gender to realize their sexual imperative the other must sacrifice their own [Ed] This is the root source of power the feminine imperative uses to establish its own reality as the normative one. From this flows the rules of engagement for dating / mating, operative social conventions used to maintain cognitive dominance, and laws and legalities that bind society to the benefit of the feminine. From this is derived men’s default status as the ‘disposable’ sex, while women are the protected sex. It’s this root that the imperative uses to excuse (not apologize for) the most blatant inconsistencies and atrocities of women.
In a nutshell, it's women getting what they want at the expense of men. Being an imperative, this desire for female dominance must originate from women themselves (Class Consciousness), even though women themselves may be unaware of process (False Consciousness). To quote Rollo once again:
One issue many of my critics have is that in exposing these inconsistencies, these operative social conventions and the latent purposes behind them, my writing (really most of the manosphere) seems to take on a conspiratorial tone. I can fully appreciate this, and it might shock a few readers to know that I reject much of the popularized MRA perspective in this respect. I agree with an MRA perspective in a rational analysis to a certain degree, but there is no grand conspiracy, no secret mysterious cabal pushing a negative perception of masculinity – and this is exactly why what I outline on this blog is so pervasive. There doesn’t need to be a unitary group of ‘anti-men’ bent on some melodramatic goal of world domination; because this feminized ideal is already embedded in our socialization. Fem-centrism IS our collective social consciousness.
I've got to admit, to me it appears a classic Marxist analysis of the situation and I reckon that the charge, that this understanding of the relationship between the sexes is classically Marxist in nature, stand.

The problem with this approach is that it intrinsically pits women against men and tars all women with the same brush. Now, I do think that the Feminine imperative holds true, especially for the avowed feminists, but for the average woman,  I don't think she wakes up in the morning desiring to consciously or unconsciously screw men over.

But..... Rollo and Dalrock's highlighting of the subject did get me thinking and I think something else is happening. I do think that the effects of the feminine imperative are real but what is enabling this is not some underlying power conflict but something more complex and therefore harder to understand and tackle.

Our current Western Culture is a product of many historical influences, influences which taken together absolve women of moral responsibility (and protect them) when they act badly. What women are doing at the moment is not imposing some sort of imperative, rather, the worst elements of female-kind (and there is a hell of a lot of them) are exploiting a sort of cultural loophole to their advantage and, as such, Dalrock  is more correct than Rollo when he says that the feminine imperative "just happens".

To keep this brief, I'll just go through a few of these influences in Western thought and how they help the worst elements of womanhood escape moral culpability.
  • Classical Greek thought. It taught that women were inferior beings devoid of full moral agency and hence were little more than moral children.
  • This synched with traditional Christianity with the husband being the moral head of the household and the woman under his control (and therefore by implication  not fully morally responsible.)
  • Puritanical Christianity which taught that flesh was bad.
  • The chivalric code. It's corruption resulted in the pedestalisation of women. More importantly, if a man compelled a woman to do anything it was seen as the moral fault of a man.
  • Romanticism. The theory that feelings were justified moral ends in themselves.
  • Atheism. Which stripped away any moral objectivity.
  • Protestantism. This is a biggie and I know I'm going to get some heat on this one. When Catholic practice becomes corrupted it becomes superstitious and idolatrous. But when Protestant practice goes bad it becomes preoccupied with being nice and non-judgmental(tolerant) instead of being good. i.e Churchianity.
  • Feminism. The theory that women are victims and can do whatever they like to obtain "justice" and that morality is an instrument of oppression.
  • Modern psychiatry (especially the legacy of Freud), which taught that repression of feelings was bad and that self-esteem was good.
  • Modern Medicine which tends push mechanistic explanations of human behaviour and therefore negates the concept of moral agency.
So let's take our Girl Scouts at the Christmas party who do nothing to reciprocate the boy's gentlemanly behaviour.  Let's look at the strains of thought in our current culture which provide unscrupulous women with ready made excuses (and allies)to evade any moral responsibility

Any question about reciprocal behaviour can be countered along the lines of:
1)Gentlemen expect nothing in reward(Chivalry).
2) We shouldn't have to do anything for you(Feminism).
Or let's say a woman who cheats on her husband. She can draw on a whole host of cultural memes to justify herself:
(1) We were  in love (Romanticisim).
(2) Don't judge me (Churchiantiy, Atheism).
(3) He seduced me (Churchiantiy, Puritancial Christianity, Chivalry, Feminism).
(4) I was depressed (Modern Psychiatry and Medicine).
Suffering the consequence of thug loving:
(1) Low self esteem (Modern Psychiatry and Medicine).
(2)) He abused me (Chivalry, Churchianity).
(3) I didn't know what I was getting into. (Denial of moral agency:Traditional Christianity, Classical Greek Thought.  Exploitation:Feminism).
Women who write love letters to serial killers.
(1) Low self Esteem (Modern Psychiatry, Medicine).
(2) I want to save him. ( Churchianity, Traditional Christianity).
The list could go on. I really don't think there is such a thing as the feminine imperative, what I do think though, is that Western Women are privileged to enjoy moral indulgence--it's their get out of jail free card, and currently, Western Women are exploiting this phenomenon en mass to avoid moral responsibility. When a woman does something consciously dumb, rude or evil, there are many resources in Western Culture she can draw on. Sure, men can access some of these resources, and criminals frequently do, but women have far deeper pool of cultural "treasure" to get out of jail.

The other interesting things to note is that jumping to defense are ideas which come from two totally different streams of thought. For example, Atheism, with its moral relativism "meshes" nicely with churchiantiy with it's imperative "not to judge". It's like fighting a hydra.

Here is an interesting cartoon from the 40's which illustrates the get out of jail free card. Bugs, a male, has to assume a female persona in order to obtain the help of chivalrous male. As a man he could never get the assistance.

Bugs Bunny - Mississippi Hare

Vezi mai multe video din animatie

Framing this advantage as an sexual imperative, slurs the women who would not dream of using it. The woman who loves her husband would be insulted at the notion that she is planning to screw him over, and I imagine the hostility many women have to this notion of an imperative stems from this. This cultural get-out-of-jail-free card is not omnipresent but is there if a woman decides to use it. There is nothing in Western Culture stopping a woman from assuming moral responsibility for their actions, it's just that in real life women, like all the male bankers involved in the GFC, want to evade responsibility.

Western Culture is largely a male product. The loopholes that have been created in it have been created by men who thought badly and are perpetuated now by men and women who don't want things to change. By chasing an imperative that is not really there, we fail to tackle the problem that is. Conservatives have got to stop treating women like moral saints(and therefore privileged) or moral idiots(and therefore excusable) and recognise them as moral equals. The solution to female bad behaviour lays not in searching for some imaginary imperative, or in trying to assert some male version of it, but in ensuring that we cut through the bullshit and ensure female moral accountability.

242 comments:

1 – 200 of 242   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

"Puritanical Christianity taught that the flesh was bad?"

Nah, that is the old Gnostic poisoning of the Roman Catholic Church (Immaculate Conception, Celibate Priests, etc.) There was the lawsuit that a young woman in Puritan Massachusetts brought against her husband because he did not provide her with enough sex. He was found guilty and fined. Sex is necessary, but only within marriage.

Thursday said...

Absolutely, women as a group are not banding together to exploit men.

The problem is the dark side of female nature itself, which, when unrestrained, often causes individual women to exploit men.

Thursday said...

Modern psychiatry (especially the legacy of Freud), which taught that repression of feelings was bad and that self-esteem was good.

Though Freud himself committed many intellectual sins, ironically this was not one of them. As you seem to imply, it was some of Freud's followers who were responsible for this line of thought. Eg. Herbert Marcuse. Freud himself thought that repressing certain impulses towards violence and sex was absolutely necessary for civilization. See Civilization and Its Discontents.

Thursday said...

The problem with applying (Group) Conflict theory to the war between the sexes is that women and men often have much more reason to ally with members of the opposite sex than with their own. As Henry Kissinger said, Too much fraternizing with the enemy. The result is that one woman will betray or agress against another woman at the drop of the hat, often in order to ally with a man.

Thursday said...

Of course, there often is a good deal of truth to Conflict Theory. Groups do sometimes exploit other groups. The problem comes when _everything_ is analyzed in terms of Who? Whom?

Thursday said...

BTW great post.

asdf said...

This is the first post you've made in awhile that I can really get behind.

In the past women were excused from having to exercise moral agency because they didn't have moral authority. Men had to do the fighting, make the choices, take the responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Since women had no power they were not asked to exercise responsibility. Only to obey.

Today women have lots of moral authority though. They can vote. They can own property. They can take a guy to court. They've been given lots of power but haven't accepted the concurrent responsibility.

The question is whether this lack of responsibility can be fixed culturally (by changing laws, by raising women differently) or if its a simple evolved biological reality that isn't going to change.

modernguy said...

So you want to toss out the Conflict Theory view of it because it might unfairly tar individual women? Someone call the Whaaambulance.

The fact is that there is a division between people along gender lines - men and women. These groups struggle for advantages in the social and legal environment and that struggle is political in nature. That is just an aspect of our modern society. It doesn't matter that not every woman is consciously or unconsciously part of the struggle. The only reason there was previously no "feminine imperative" is because women were denied political rights altogether.

At the microscopic level everything breaks down and the old divisions are lost. But that doesn't mean that the macro reality doesn't exist.

Simon Grey said...

"but for the average woman, I don't think she wakes up in the morning desiring to consciously or unconsciously screw men over."

Perhaps not. But the curse of Eve from Genesis 3 implies, at least in the original Hebrew, that Eve would have a desire to rule over Adam. Since Adam and Eve are biblical types, its not unreasonable to assume that women would have a general desire to rule over men.

Furthermore, it was the prophet Jeremiah who stated that "The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?" I think a strong case can be made that women have a strong subconscious desire to rule over men but are often not aware of this actually being the case. (Think of how women respond to being put in their place after some rather violent emotional venting. They usually apologize for their behavior and claim that they don't know what came over them. This is probably true, since what most likely came over them was a desire to cow their husbands into submission by raging at them.)

Obviously, this doesn't make the Marxist bullshit true, since the real problem is spiritual in nature, not political (though it does manifest itself politically), but the phenomena described by Rollo certainly exists. He just has the wrong lens of analysis and, necessarily, the wrong solution.

Simon Grey said...

BTW, I'm digging the picture of Groucho at head of this post. If I were ever a Marxist, it would definitely be of the Groucho variety. The dude was damn funny.

Days of Broken Arrows said...

This is a really brilliant breakdown of how the Oprah-ization of women's behavior came to be. Nice job.

modernguy said...

"Obviously, this doesn't make the Marxist bullshit true, since the real problem is spiritual in nature"

The problem is only spiritual if you admit that kind of sprituality, which in our society is another political issue. So, incidentally, the "Marxist bullshit" is true, as far as that goes anyway. And if you support democracy then by definition you support the politicization of differences.

candide3 said...

The other interesting things to note is that jumping to defense are ideas which come from two totally different streams of thought. For example, Atheism, with its moral relativism "meshes" nicely with churchiantiy with it's imperative "not to judge".

Atheism is very far from being a "totally different stream of thought" from churchianity. In fact, it constitutes the stem and churchianity is a branch of a branch twisted around the stem.

TDOM said...

When I think of an “imperative” in terms of human behavior, I equate it with biology. Thus I would equate a “feminine imperative” with those aspects of biology that are uniquely female and influence female behavior. This is the cornerstone of evolutionary psychology, though it doesn’t necessarily have to be defined in that context. Culture is the establishment of rules and norms to provide order and to control base animal instincts. It is what allows us to live together and form societies.

Western culture is that which begin in ancient Greece and spread throughout Europe, evolving as it mixed with other cultures along the way. You’ve pointed out a number of incarnations and influences. I don’t necessarily agree with each of your characterizations, but that isn’t important to this discussion. What is important is that you have detached biology from the imperative and are attributing it entirely to socialization. I don’t believe this is possible.

Behavior is inextricably tied to biology. This, however, does not mean that socialization cannot alter behavior. It certainly can. But it does mean that without cultural restriction, society would crumble. Men and women would behave according to their biological imperatives (some of these behaviors would be good, others evil). Men, probably because of greater size and strength, became the creators and enforcers of culture within society at large. Women, probably because of their role in reproduction and childrearing, became the creators and enforcers of culture within the home. Both roles have been necessary (and are complimentary) for the existence of civilization. However, these roles are negotiated with men exerting influence in the home and women exerting influence in society at large and are therefore different (and changing) in various societies at various times. Conflict occurs during times of societal change and upheaval.

(to be continued)

TDOM said...

The modern conflict began with the industrial revolution which has completely transformed Western Society. Marxism grew during the same period and the early feminists began to take on the same tone and Marxist principles would evolve to define the feminist movement as a whole. Because Cultural Marxism is based on conflict, the feminine imperative (which is really neither pro- nor anti-male) has taken a decidedly anti-male turn. Rather than attempting to re-negotiate complimentary roles for men and women, the feminist movement has created conflict where there needn’t be any and has become decidedly anti-male, defining men as evil oppressors and women as innocent victims. This is a twisting of previous incarnations of the feminine imperative (such as the ones you describe) and the cultural restrictions placed upon it for the greater good of society. (There have also been restrictions placed on the male imperative throughout history as well.) The result has been a continuous lifting of the restrictions on the female imperative (rights without responsibilities) and a continuous restricting of the male imperative (responsibilities without rights).

You are correct in you assessment of Western Culture being the product of many historical influences and how (at least some) of these influences have allowed the worst elements of womanhood to escape moral culpability. This is the dark side of the feminine imperative. As stated above, my view of the male and female imperatives is that neither is good nor evil; but both contain behaviors that we would define as good and evil, which is the reason society has always placed restrictions on these imperatives. By lifting the restrictions on the female imperative, the worst aspects of womanhood have come to be socially acceptable. By pacing excessive restrictions on the male imperative, even the best aspects of manhood are now deemed corrupt. As a result, society is deteriorating. There is no balance.

It has nothing to do with whether or not an individual woman wakes up in the morning thinking about how she is going to screw over her husband (who she loves very much). These imperatives do not operate on an individual level (there is too much individual variance). They operate on the level of the species and can only be seen on the cultural level. Therefore it would be inappropriate to apply the imperative to an individual.

I also disagree with the notion that Western Culture is largely a male product. Although men have typically held the positions of power, women have not been without considerable influence. Western Culture (or any culture) is a product of both.

Note: When I talk about negotiation, I am talking about a general acceptance of a shift in cultural attitudes, not conspiracy or a real “negotiation between men and women.”

Thursday said...

I don't see TSP's work here as undermining the rootedness of this behaviour in biology. I think it just assumes it. Biological tendencies will manifest themselves differently in different environments. Part of that environment is the social environment.

Thursday said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thursday said...

The Feminine Imperative is really just "what women want." So, it often includes things like material resources, sex with an attractive man, social prestige, children etc. Some of these things conflict with what men in general want and some others conflict with what particular men want, but many definitely do _not_ conflict with men's desires. Often they mesh very well with what either men in general, or at least particular men want. So, this idea that the interests of a man and a woman must be in perpetual conflict is nonsense.

TDOM said...

@ Thursday,
An imperative is something that is nec essary or required, not merely something that is wanted or desired. I fully believe that biological imperatives exist, but that these imperatives can be influenced, changed, or redirected by the environment, particularly the social environment. Maslow's hierarchy of needs does a good job of indicating what these imperatives are. Those needs lower down the hierarchy are the most difficult to change and they must be satisfied first. The needs nearer the top are less urgent and take lower priority. One of the reasons feminism has become so powerful is that women have become better able to meet their basic needs and are more focused on those at the top of the hierarchy. They are able to do this because men are generally focused on meeting the more basic needs of women as well as their own. this is why socialism is so appealing to feminists. As long as men (or government) are focused on meeting their needs, women are free to pursue their desires. The industrial revolution enabled this and feminists have exploited it.

Drew said...

Interesting post.

Höllenhund said...

I’d say one way to illustrate the feminine imperative is to think of it as a labyrinth that all males are thrown into as soon as they start to mature. There’s no escape – all your life you’ll be wandering through corridors, disoriented, not knowing what to make of it all. It’s the only structure you’ll ever know – nobody will ever show you the path that leads outside. Because you’re there to serve.

It doesn’t matter whether you grow up to hate women or not. In fact, it doesn’t matter what you think or feel at all. And, of course, it doesn’t matter what path you choose, because there’s no escape. As soon as you do so much as question any woman’s actions, or do anything that can be seen as an impediment to women’s interests, you’re toast. You become a pariah, an untouchable. It doesn’t matter what you’ve accomplished or contributed in life. It doesn’t matter who you are or what you do.

Are you a dutiful husband with children? You’re just another privileged, prejudiced male with a sense of entitlement.
Are you an employed, hard-working single man? You’re just another asshole who thinks he’s entitled to anything just because he has a job and abides by the law.
Are you unemployed and single? You’re just another Peter Pan refusing to man up, intimidated by strong independent womyn.
Are you struggling to pay child support? Screw you. You should have kept it in your pants. Who are you to complain?
Are you an expat? You’re just a misogynist loser who wants an obedient, exotic little female slave because you cannot handle strong independent Western womyn.
Are you stuck working a dead-end job in a white trash area? You’re just another loser who refuses to improve himself and compete.
Are you a PUA? You’re a mentally damaged misogynist asshole who pleasures himself in degrading innocent women and selling snake oil to the clueless.
Are you someone learning Game? You’re just a horrible creep with a chip on his shoulder who feels entitled to women outside his league and wanting to get back at them for getting dumped.
Are you a traditionalist? You’re just another right-winger redneck sticking to his guns and wanting to keep women barefoot and pregnant.
Are you a MGTOW? You’re just a loathsome, misogynist creep wallowing in self-pity.
Etc.

You can’t win no matter what you do. Not only is there an entire social-cultural-political edifice to keep you trapped forever, you probably won’t even notice that you’re in a trap.

The Social Pathologist said...

@Thursday.

The problem is the dark side of female nature itself, which, when unrestrained, often causes individual women to exploit men.

True, the thing is though the culture priviledges by not really insisting on moral accountability by women.

@Asdf.

the way to fix it up is by
1) admitting that women have moral agency.


For example, the fact that a woman has PMT should not be any excuse for shitty behaviour. No man gets off the hook if he commits a crime while sufferring from (PST) Pre-Sexual-Tension i.e horniness. Why do women get off let off the hook?

2) Insist on moral responsiblity.

@modernguy
So you want to toss out the Conflict Theory view of it because it might unfairly tar individual women?

No, I want to toss it out because it has no basis in reality.

@Simon
You might like this link.

The Social Pathologist said...

@candide3

I'm not so sure about that. Churchianity is the religion of nice. Atheism is the metaphysics of empiricism.

TDOM

Marxism grew during the same period and the early feminists began to take on the same tone and Marxist principles would evolve to define the feminist movement as a whole.

The more Marxist the feminine movement has become the less women want to join it. That's not to say that women who didn't join it have not enjoy some of the priviliges it has given them.

The result has been a continuous lifting of the restrictions on the female imperative (rights without responsibilities) and a continuous restricting of the male imperative (responsibilities without rights).


Our society did not have to tackle the problem of female moral accountability because it rarely had to deal with it. Women were disenfranchised both economically, politically and morally.

They operate on the level of the species and can only be seen on the cultural level.

The reason why species survive has got nothing do with the desires of the species, it "just happens" as a result of the circumstances. The species dies if the environment change despite its desires. The effect of the imperative stops if the culture changes.

nightskyradio said...

My impression of the "Feminine Imperative" is that is just a deeper imperative filtered through a female lens.

The imperative seems to be, at root, the base drive of getting Free Stuff. What makes it seem like a conspiracy, instead of an (artificially distorted) emergent order, is that men have fewer incentives and greater consequences for following up on these drives. Women have been shielded from the visible consequences, resulting in greater incentives to act upon their drives, and greater success in attaining their goals.

The Girl Scouts got a free benefit - they're moved to the front of the line. Only after this occurred did they discover that they were so gifted due to being girls. Female-ness becomes the leverage to get the Free Stuff, in the service of the deeper base drive.

If this seems a little disjointed, it's because I'm still working it out in my own head. I never even heard of the "Feminine Imperative" until a month or so ago.

zippycatholic said...

SP:
As a theory of social analysis, it's a tailor made cognitive solution for the [simpleton] common man in trying to understand his troubles.

That it is. And 'Cultural Marxism' is a better term than 'Conflict Theory' because the former doesn't attempt to sanitize the concept and make it respectable by eliminating reference to its historical source.

Upon further reflection though I think this "feminine imperative" stuff may be what you get when you mix cultural marxism with HBD/evo-psych. It isn't just that the oppressors (women) are to be analyzed in terms of their power struggle with the oppressed (men). At the same time, the oppressors are what they are because of deterministic evolutionary forces: not because of thought and agency but because of brute biology.

It is like a grand synthesis of the dumbest and most brutal twentieth century ideologies into a single crap sandwich.

Anonymous said...

The feminine imperative is a deterministic theory, but it isn't even the most interesting one out there. That the feminist movement is inevitable and part of the cycle of history is far more tantalizing.

Consider Sir John Glubb's essay, The Fate of Empires and the Search for Survival: during the tenth century, in what he calls the Arabian Empire, women were becoming lawyers and professors. Oswald Spengler strikes a similar note in his reflections on the "Ibsen women" as contrasted with that of a peasant mother. The line from Book VIII of the Republic concerning democracies also seems important here: "nor must I forget to tell of the liberty and equality of the two sexes in relation to each other." Even the particularly existential bend of twentieth century feminism after Beauvoir is reminiscent of ancient parallels (read Hans Jonas's comparison of existentialism and gnosticism and the social influences that contribute to them in his book, The Gnostic Religion).

Who needs psychology when you can sound more erudite and philosophical with historicism?

-Aegis

TDOM said...

@ TSP

“Women were disenfranchised both economically, politically and morally.”

I can agree with political disenfranchisement since society at large was the domain of men. They were morally disenfranchised, but to a lesser degree. At the societal level men were frequently held accountable for the actions of their wives and were in turn expected to hold their wives accountable. So there was some moral accountability. Women are morally disenfranchised to a greater extent because society continues to fail to hold them morally accountable and has removed any accountability to their husbands. Economically they were disenfranchised because they often were not permitted to own property, inherit property, or work. However, marriage resolved this problem by attaching the woman to a husband who was responsible for her. The entire system of patrilineal heritage ensured (to a large degree) that both men and women were provided for. Sons inherited from their fathers and kept the family name. Daughter were married into other families. The system ensured that one family member (the male) would have the ability to provide for the rest of the family. It also ensured that men would be able to find wives. Thus the economic disenfranchisement of women was not that they were economically depressed, as it was that restrictions were placed on their participation in paid employment outside the home. Women lived at the same economic level as the men they married. (Hypergamy becomes important here.)

“The reason why species survive has got nothing do with the desires of the species, it "just happens" as a result of the circumstances. The species dies if the environment change despite its desires. The effect of the imperative stops if the culture changes.”

I’m not really in disagreement with this as you state it. The objection I have is that you seem to equate imperative with desire while I equate it with need. In a comment responding to Thursday I mentioned Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. The feminine imperative becomes more powerful once the lower level needs are satisfied leaving women free to focus on meeting those higher level needs. Feminism as a movement is a response to the drive to meet those higher level needs. Fulfilling higher level needs like self-actualization requires a bit of narcissism. It is a focus on the self. As one becomes more self-focused, one becomes more reliant on others. Feminism has recognized this and Marxism was the perfect answer. A woman could free herself from her husband, ensure her lower level needs are met by the government, and focus on self. For the government to be able to do this, men are required to do what they always have; continue to produce more than they consume in order to support the government. Thus men (as a group) are still not able to focus on those higher level needs.

This also explains why educated women are complaining that they can’t find marriageable mates. Men are still working to meet basic needs while women are attempting to self-actualize. But that’s another discussion.

Anonymous said...

Slumlord:

You correctly conclude the solution to bad female behavior is to stop excusing it and stop protecting women from the consequences. But it really has no connection to your argument, which is that the feminine imperative is really just a scapegoat for disgruntled, angry, loser men on which they can blame their failures.

I don't agree with your argument because I don't think you've stated what the feminine imperative is, but that's neither here nor there.

You also say that women aren't consciously or subconsciously trying to screw men over. Agreed. It's also not what Rollo or Dalrock argue. What is actually happening is that women, like men, are trying to use culture, law, and social behavior to maximize their advantages while minimizing disadvantages. Right now, women have culture, law, and social behavior in their favor. Screwing men over is simply a byproduct of the imbalance, unintended by all but the most malevolent feminists.

The argument is simply that the feminine imperative is the biological directives and the cultural customs and practices which serve and advance it. Nothing more, nothing less.

deti

Anonymous said...

When Catholic practice becomes corrupted it becomes superstitious and idolatrous. But when Protestant practice goes bad it becomes preoccupied with being nice and non-judgmental(tolerant) instead of being good. i.e Churchianity

CS Lewis, himself a Protestant (barely), said pretty much the same thing:

"When Catholicism goes bad it becomes the world-old, world-wide religio of amulets and holy places and priestcraft. Protestantism, in its corresponding decay, becomes a vague mist of ethical platitudes. Catholicism is accused of being too much like all the other religions; Protestantism of being insufficiently like a religion at all."

The Social Pathologist said...

@Deti

I don't agree with your argument because I don't think you've stated what the feminine imperative is, but that's neither here nor there.

There is no feminine imperative.

There is the effects of females behaving badly and there are many reasons why they are doing so--there is no overiding imperative.

The argument is simply that the feminine imperative is the biological directives and the cultural customs and practices which serve and advance it.

In other what happens.....but its due to biology, except when it isn't.

It's also not what Rollo or Dalrock argue

Practice your comprehension skills. Read the quote of Rollo's I put up at the beginning of the post. It is he that posits that male and female sexual imperatives are intriniscally opposed. One is only achieved at the expense of the other.

I don't think Dalrock holds this position.

@TDOM

However, marriage resolved this problem by attaching the woman to a husband who was responsible for her.

But the culture that produced this also ended up treating her as a moral child, not fully up to responsibilities of adulthood. She could always play the...my husband should have been looking after things when she acted up, or he wasn't there to give me guidance, or "I'm only a woman, you know".

The objection I have is that you seem to equate imperative with desire while I equate it with need.

The two are the same.

On one hand you're saying that women want to self actualise and have independence of action on the other you say they are complaining of not been able to marry some one. Dude, that's two mutually contradictory lines of thought.

And as feminism as a system of control of the means of production so as women can better self actualise is the poetry of Marx to a different lyric.

@Zippy

I'm not a big fan of evo-psych.

Kathy Farrelly said...

"There is no feminine imperative."

Ah the voice of knowledge and reason!

"There is the effects of females behaving badly and there are many reasons why they are doing so--there is no overiding imperative."

I totally agree, Doc.

Females acting like sluts, or taking men to the cleaners through divorce for example, has nothing to do with an over riding imperative.

These women do such things because they have no morals, and because they CAN!

There appears to no longer be any shame involved in promiscuity or frivolous divorce.

More's the pity.

The Social Pathologist said...

@TDOM

And as feminism as a system of control of the means of production so as women can better self actualise is the poetry of Marx to a different lyric.

Should have been;

And, the idea that feminism is a system of control of the means of production so women can better self-actualise, is the music of Marx to a different set of lyrics.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
zippycatholic said...

SP:
There is no feminine imperative.

There is the effects of females behaving badly and there are many reasons why they are doing so--there is no overiding imperative.


It is as real as the scorpion in the constellation Scorpio or that sheep in the clouds.

I'm not a big fan of evo-psych.

So I gather. As odd as it feels, you and I are allowed to agree.

TDOM said...

@ TSP

“On one hand you're saying that women want to self actualise and have independence of action on the other you say they are complaining of not been able to marry some one. Dude, that's two mutually contradictory lines of thought.”

On the surface, yes. Below the surface, not so much. Self-actualization can take many forms. Biologically speaking, for women there is an innate need to reproduce. Some women can overcome this need, most cannot. Thus, for most women, self-actualization includes raising children. A man (even if he is merely a sperm donor) is required for this process.

When women were still concerned with meeting basic needs, self-actualization (to the extent it occurred) was realized through raising a family and being a good wife which is how women tended to define themselves. But as women’s basic needs were met more efficiently and easily through the development of technology, women had more and more free time. Being a wife and mother was no longer sufficient for many women.

Feminism filled this gap and taught women that they could be more than wives and mothers. They could also enter the society at large and do anything men could do. But feminism didn’t stop there. Feminism more or less required women to find careers. but for most women, a career could not replace family, therefore a woman had to have both and the feminist mantra of “You can have it all” was born.

Most women still realize that the best way to “have it all” is to have a husband. But the husband is no longer the steady provider/protector husband of the past. He is now an equal partner and not someone who needs to be depended on. This makes a husband an option instead of a requirement. When he was a requirement, women often had to settle for the steady provider, a lesser model than what was really desired. This is no longer the case. With government to catch them if they falter, women are now able to become more demanding in what they want from a husband. Combine that with a natural tendency towards hypergamy and you get the marriageable mate problem. Women want a mate on their own level or preferably above. But men are still stuck lower down the hierarchy because men are still required to produce more than they consume in order to support the women’s governmental support system.

This is the failure of feminism. It has elevated the status of the average woman beyond the status of the average man. This leaves men as less appealing as partners. If feminism had actually empowered women, men would be free to rise through Maslow’s hierarchy the way women have (or at least have attempted). But the feminist zeal to destroy the traditional family requires safety nets to catch women when they fall. Those safety nets are mostly supported by men and supporting those safety nets prevents men from rising through the hierarchy in much the same way as supporting a family prevented him from it.

The feminist version of self-actualization produces a much more self-centered woman who puts her needs above all else. But this does not mean that she does not desire marriage. What she desires is a different kind of marriage and a different kind of man and there aren’t as many of those out there. Men are pretty much the same as they’ve always been because feminism did nothing to liberate men.

TDOM said...

@ TSP

"And, the idea that feminism is a system of control of the means of production so women can better self-actualise, is the music of Marx to a different set of lyrics."

I like that. But I might replace "means of production" with "means of redistribution." Feminism doesn't seem quite as concerned with production as it does with redistribution of wealth. Or perhaps its both.

"I'm not a big fan of evo-psych."

Oddly, I'm not either. I view it as a very incomplete theory. But it does have its uses, mostly in explaining base human behavior and motivation. It fails miserably in its ability to explain deviance from base behavior and it fails to account for socialization.

I'm not a big fan of "blank slate" theory. Evo-psych is useful in accounting for what is on the slate at birth and how it got there.

GK Chesterton said...

@Thursday,

I was going to pull out the Kissinger quote! You beat me to it!

@SP,

So I'm one of those that read you that honestly believe that women have reduced moral agency. Not vacated, just reduced. I see this as equivalent to the difference in moral agency between angels/demons and men. Their ability increases their agency. Note however, that a reduction in agency (and I believe such reduction is minor between men and women) still brings responsibility. That is the inverse of the Spider Man creed: with reduced power comes a little less responsibility. Women should not claim vacated responsibility and traditionally they weren't held to such a light standard. That is a fairly new phenomena for which I think you correctly identify the confluence of factors.

This is one of my other beefs with the manosphere (the other one I put on your previous post). If men are of a greater excellence then we _must_ be more at fault for the status quo. Slut shaming therefore is not as much a fault of the feminists, but of cowardly men who are unwilling to call out poor behavior.

In fact as much as I believe the current educational marketplace is skewed completely towards women I have no one to blame other than those who wrote the rules: (effeminate) male academics.

@ModernGuy,
At the microscopic level everything breaks down and the old divisions are lost. But that doesn't mean that the macro reality doesn't exist.

True enough, but have you seen comment boxes lately? Individual women usually get heavily painted by the macro brush when they come to talk. Even those who are largely allies in the cause. That shouldn't happen. On the whole we've (macro) been so fixated on the macro that we are blind to the micro.

GK Chesterton said...

@Simon,
But the curse of Eve from Genesis 3 implies, at least in the original Hebrew, that Eve would have a desire to rule over Adam. Since Adam and Eve are biblical types, its not unreasonable to assume that women would have a general desire to rule over men.

You have that backwards Gen 3:16 says:
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.

And thus the desire for alpha over the more moderate beta was born.

@SP,

Whoa there buddy. The Religion of Nice is all mine. I've already started on the book. Several thousand words into it. Though I'm happy its catchy.

@TDOM,
At the societal level men were frequently held accountable for the actions of their wives and were in turn expected to hold their wives accountable. So there was some moral accountability

Exactly. The method of accountability is too attenuated to work right now outside of some insular religious societies. When I was a member of one that did happen. If my wife was considered rude for example I'm the one who got the phone call and interestingly she passed _me_ the phone if someone was complaining about her. I was supposed to manage such incidents.

@SP,

culture that produced this also ended up treating her as a moral child, not fully up to responsibilities of adulthood. She could always play the...my husband should have been looking after things when she acted up, or he wasn't there to give me guidance, or "I'm only a woman, you know".

No it doesn't work that way anymore than I can claim God didn't give me a direct answer. Reduced agency is not, if properly handled, a get out of jail free card. In the above situation this may _reduce_ culpability but it doesn't _remove_ culpability. While I'm not Catholic I feel the CCC words it (though not for this instance) as:
"Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest."

Therefore there is no _excuse_ but there are "diminish[ments] of the free character of the offense". One of the problems with Churchanity is that it assumes diminishment is equivalent to excuse. It isn't.

GK Chesterton said...

Well color me flumoxed...just noticed the "or remove" to which I object strongly. I'll have to check the Latin later today.

TDOM said...

@ GKC
“If my wife was considered rude for example I'm the one who got the phone call and interestingly she passed _me_ the phone if someone was complaining about her. I was supposed to manage such incidents.”
This is precisely the problem. The combination of society’s revocation of a man’s ability to hold his wife accountable for her behavior, its active refusal to insist that women hold themselves accountable, its resistance to holding them accountable as a society means that women can more or less do as they please without fear of consequence. The once complimentary roles of man and woman (I disagree with the assertion that the interests of men and women are inherently opposed) have become competing roles where one can now only be satisfied at the expense of the other.

zippycatholic said...

GK Chesterton:
True enough, but have you seen comment boxes lately? Individual women usually get heavily painted by the macro brush when they come to talk. Even those who are largely allies in the cause. That shouldn't happen.

Yes, exactly. The extent to which the macro model is used to psychoanalyze individual women in the comboxes over the Internet is a more or less direct measure of the extent to which the entire project has gone off the rails.

The Social Pathologist said...

@GKC

So I'm one of those that read you that honestly believe that women have reduced moral agency.

I'll have to respectfully disagree here. Taking a Protestant approach to the subject, you'll notice that both Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. He did not blame Adam for Eve's sin, rather, he blamed both--Eve for listening to Satan and Adam for listening to Eve. He did not give Eve a free pass for being a woman. The Bible is pretty clear that both male and female bear the responsibility of their actions.

In fact as much as I believe the current educational marketplace is skewed completely towards women I have no one to blame other than those who wrote the rules: (effeminate) male academics.

Here, I am prepared to cede some ground to you. You know I'm on the record for saying that men on average have dropped the ball.
The question is why?

As mentioned in previous posts, romantic and ascetic culture played a big role in this development, but the other big issue that never gets mentioned is the hedonic worship of sex. To put it rather crudely, when a man "thinks with his dick" he subordinates all qualities to gain access to sex. Becoming a slave to his passions he becomes subordinate to provider of his satiety. Hence a man who lives by his sexual imperative becomes a slave to the woman who can satiate is desires.

The whole thing about Game though, is that while most of its practitioners are avowedly hedonic in their approach to life, it does teach men to accept sex from a woman only if she conforms to a male's terms. In a weird way, it reinforces masculinity by urging a degree of sexual restraint.


Whoa there buddy. The Religion of Nice is all mine.

You know, if I enjoyed writing (or could write well) I would have written that book about two years ago. Good luck with it.

From a cultural analysis point of view, such a book is sorely needed.
The conflation of niceness with goodness, a mental error which I feel Protestantism is particularly prone to, is one of the "acids of Modernity" which most people fail to recognise. One of its most insidious effects is that it produces that most lethal of moral poisons, evil committed in a sense of sanctity.

Note. This is not a dig at Prostestantism but the corruption of it. C.S. Lewis recognised the same phenomenon, though I can't quote him at the moment.

GK Chesterton said...

So a quick comment lest I get painted as a partisan to an affair I have little interest in. Evidently, while I've been behind on reading, there was a micro spat between Zippy and Dalrock. I see that my comment _can_ be read in a partisan fashion. Let me state, for the record, that I was completely ignorant of said microspat. The comment reflects what I see as general trends.

@SP,
"...Taking a Protestant approach to the subject, you'll notice that both Adam and Eve got kicked out of the Garden of Eden. He did not blame Adam for Eve's sin, rather, he blamed both--Eve for listening to Satan and Adam for listening to Eve. He did not give Eve a free pass for being a woman. The Bible is pretty clear that both male and female bear the responsibility of their actions."

This raises a couple of issues. First, and I've mentioned it elsewhere but I'm not sure I have here, I'm not Protestant though I was raised one. I'm a semi-pro-Rome Orthodox, rare as such beasts are. I'm probably the opposite of the blogger OrthoCath and in fact bear the same heritage.

GK Chesterton said...

Next, neither tradition nor the Bible lay equal blame here. Yes, both are punished and I'd argue that my comments above allow for this. However both are not punished equally and the remediation of these punishments is decidedly unequal.

I'll note first off that Eve is granted limited culpability by no less of an authority than St. Paul who tells us that, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." (cf. 1 Tim 2)

Eve is a different moral beast, receives a different punishment and is remidiated through the New Adam, a man. If she had the same moral agency we would presume an equal punishment. The punishment is not equal, "through one man sin entered into the world."

St. Aquinas goes further saying:
"I answer that, As stated (3), the gravity of a sin depends on the species rather than on a circumstance of that sin. Accordingly we must assert that, if we consider the condition attaching to these persons, the man's sin is the more grievous, because he was more perfect than the woman.

As regards the genus itself of the sin, the sin of each is considered to be equal, for each sinned by pride. Hence Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xi, 35): "Eve in excusing herself betrays disparity of sex, though parity of pride."

But as regards the species of pride, the woman sinned more grievously, for three reasons. First, because she was more puffed up than the man. For the woman believed in the serpent's persuasive words, namely that God had forbidden them to eat of the tree, lest they should become like to Him; so that in wishing to attain to God's likeness by eating of the forbidden fruit, her pride rose to the height of desiring to obtain something against God's will. On the other hand, the man did not believe this to be true; wherefore he did not wish to attain to God's likeness against God's will: but his pride consisted in wishing to attain thereto by his own power. Secondly, the woman not only herself sinned, but suggested sin to the man; wherefore she sinned against both God and her neighbor. Thirdly, the man's sin was diminished by the fact that, as Augustine says (Gen. ad lit. xi, 42), "he consented to the sin out of a certain friendly good-will, on account of which a man sometimes will offend God rather than make an enemy of his friend. That he ought not to have done so is shown by the just issue of the Divine sentence."

It is therefore evident that the woman's sin was more grievous than the man's. " (cf. Summa II.163)

So I reply that both (T)radition and the Bible mitigate against such an extreme equality. Interestingly Aquinas presents this inequality in a way that is both opposite and supportive of my position (he paints Eve as willfully ignorant and "less perfect" in her mastery of passions).

"The Religion of Nice"

I may feed you bits later on then to ruthlessly destroy for my betterment.

The rest I agree with.

modernguy said...

No, I want to toss it out because it has no basis in reality.

What would satisfy you to prove that it does exist? You listed a number of factors which contribute to the propagation of - whatever you want to call it - I'll say the misapprehension of female nature and the political consequences of that. It's undeniable that women have made a lot of political progress in the last century. A lot of that has been at the expense of men's rights. The factors you list have acted as catalysts for the feminist push or as impediments to a reactionary response to it, but they don't account for or sustain the initiative of that push. That is the feminine imperative.

It is using the factors you listed to it's advantage in the political fight. Men have blinded themselves and women are using that against them, consciously or not.

As for Marx, "cultural marxism" is a bullshit term used by know-nothings who imagine that somewhere at some point Marx was rendered obsolete and irrelevant, despite not being quite clear on when or how that might have happened or what he was even about in the first place. Ironically, most of those people are in the "proletarian" class to boot.

Cane Caldo said...

Chesterton has the right of it: Women have reduced culpability. This is clear throughout scripture, and right on through antiquity until the modern age.

I do think there is a feminine imperative, and as several others have stated is found right there in Genesis 3, at the beginning of all things.

What your Conflict Theorists/Cultural Marxists get wrong is that all wars are two-way, or should be, and herein lies the problem because it's not true.

Women are warped by sin to be in rebellion to men, and men likewise to be in rebellion to God. The CT/CM sees this at evidence that the two parties (respectively) are at war with each other, but they are wrong because this is a rebellion--what we might call a one-way war. Women, when they give their sinful natures the lead, are indeed at war with men, but the reverse is not true. Even sinful men are not generally at war with women. In fact, men's sin is often the opposite: aiding and abetting the rebellion.

If men and women were at war with each other, things would look very different. Women would be slaves to men. Not in the fantasy way that feminists imagine before giving women the vote, but in a very real way. We are sufficiently stronger, smarter, and more committed to do harm for our cause than women are. Nor do I wish for us to be at war with women; as much as MRA's might want it, or conjure that it be true.

ElectricAngel said...

@SP,

The problem is the dark side of female nature itself, which, when unrestrained, often causes individual women to exploit men.

True, the thing is though the culture priviledges by not really insisting on moral accountability by women.

@Asdf.

the way to fix it up is by
1) admitting that women have moral agency.

For example, the fact that a woman has PMT should not be any excuse for shitty behaviour. No man gets off the hook if he commits a crime while sufferring from (PST) Pre-Sexual-Tension i.e horniness. Why do women get off let off the hook?

2) Insist on moral responsiblity.


I refer you this excellent post.

I think you are ignoring female biology here. From that link, three facts, based on experiment: 1) Women have much wider ranging desires, and are FAR more perverse than men. 2) We never actually decide to do anything, but we can decide to suppress the desire to do something. 3) Suppresion of hind-brain initiated thoughts requires willpower, which requires blood sugar; suffer a drop in blood sugar and impulsivity rises. Ask one of your diabetic patients if you don't believe the research.

A woman requires a tremendous investment of energy and resourses if she is to reproduce: here originates her imperative, to secure resources. She cannot undergo menarche if body fat is below 3%; she will stop mensturation if she has insufficient body fat to carry a child to term. To prepare the womb lining to receive a fertilized egg on a monthly basis requires an IMMENSE investment of energy, driving down blood sugar levels and leading to the familiar carbohydrate cravings.

For you to insist that such a creature be given full moral agency, and given the power that accords with that, is to ignore this fundamental fact. Perhaps full moral agency CAN be given to post-menopausal women, but successful societies have accorded women with little legal power because nature has given them so much, as Dr. Johnson noted.

Thursday said...

Women are warped by sin to be in rebellion to men

No, women love to submit to the right kind of man.

Cane Caldo said...

No, women love to submit to the right kind of man.

No, not "No". Of course they love to fulfill their purpose. It is not one or the other. The Christian loves to submit to God, but he is very often in rebellion.

The Social Pathologist said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Social Pathologist said...

@GKC

Looking forward to the snippets.

BTW, A Pro-Rome Orthodox who was previously a protestant is really a rare thing!

@Modernguy, Cane, ElectricAngel.

The reason that I don't believe in the Feminine Imperative is because the sum of my experience with women, both as a man, doctor and husband is at variance with the theory of the imperative and basic common sense.

Evo-psyche is front loaded with biological determinism. Women have the ability to override their biology if they choose so.
It's not like they're automatons to their biological needs or desires. Anorectics, for instance, can override their desire for food for the sake of other goods.

I'm moderately up to date with basic neurobiology. Here's a hint, we basically know jack shit with regard to how the brain works. Simplistic understandings based upon glucose metabolism, testosterone, oxytocin are just that.......simplistic.

Subordinating a wife the to headship of the husband does not mean that the wife lost moral agency. Just like soldiers are not considered devoid of moral agency when obeying the orders of superiors. The Neuremberg Defence won't work with God.

I don't know any passage of scripture where God gives women a free pass for their sins, in other words, God recognises the Moral Agency of women.

Seriously, you guys don't realise just how much you sound like some Western version of the Taliban.

zippycatholic said...

@SP:
I'm moderately up to date with basic neurobiology. Here's a hint, we basically know jack shit with regard to how the brain works. Simplistic understandings based upon glucose metabolism, testosterone, oxytocin are just that.......simplistic.

Understatement award.

ElectricAngel said...

@SP,
Evo-psyche is front loaded with biological determinism. Women have the ability to override their biology if they choose so.

The brain runs on glucose; the reference here is Roy Baumeister (he of the "the percentage of women who have left descendants is twice the percentage of men" stat)'s book from 2011, Willpower. The conscious, will part of the mind serves as a method of programming habits into the lower part of the mind. But it can only do so with an expenditure of energy: glucose. All the cc's will not get a Ferrari to go 200MPH if there is no gasoline. Are you disputing the role of glucose in brain function? Does your country allow diabetics to pilot commercial airliners? A women in the heavy-energy-investment part of her cycle CRAVES carbohydrates because she is like that low-blood-sugar diabetic.

It's not like they're automatons to their biological needs or desires. Anorectics, for instance, can override their desire for food for the sake of other goods.
Their will, while well-fed, sets up a negative habit of food avoidance. The book Willpower discusses WHY most diets are so hard: they reduce the blood glucose that allows one to exert control over the desire to eat.

I would also offer that you are suffering from an excess of egalitarianism. What YOU THINK is different from what women CAN DO; they're not simply men without penises, you know. They are, drumroll please, different, and you seem to want to gloss over that difference.

I'm moderately up to date with basic neurobiology. Here's a hint, we basically know jack shit with regard to how the brain works. Simplistic understandings based upon glucose metabolism, testosterone, oxytocin are just that.......simplistic.
I would again refer you to the link, and the links therein. Experimental psych (not evo, in this case) shows the effect in a common test of will: how long can you keep your arm in a bucket of icewater? People who had suffered ego depletion through mental exertion had times HALF those of people who had made no mental exertion. Those whose blood glucose levels were restored were again able to exert will over their actions.

Seriously, you guys don't realise just how much you sound like some Western version of the Taliban.
Flattery will get you nowhere! ;-)

Cane Caldo said...

Please don't lump me with EA and MG. I'm sure they're fine fellows, but I've been vocal that evo-psych is rubbish along the lines of phrenology, or alchemy.

And I should have been clearer on my comment on the feminine imperative. I don't know what Rollo says about it because my brain glazes over when I tried to read his ramblings. (It's entirely possible that he experiences the same of mine.) I think of it as this: No matter how good she is at over-riding her instincts (and some women are very commendable in this regard), that instinct persists, and that instinct is to get her husband to do what she wants and like it. As Thursday said:

"Absolutely, women as a group are not banding together to exploit men.

The problem is the dark side of female nature itself, which, when unrestrained, often causes individual women to exploit men."


What I am adding is that while Thursday's comment seems to suggest only that women exploit men for their own benefit, I'm saying they will exploit dynamics for the sheer pleasure of having a man do their bidding. A pleasure, it should be added, that is drug-like in that the rewards of which feel disproportionally better in the very short term than they do in the long, and even not-so-short.

On being the Western Taliban, I think you are lumping me, again, with the wrong people. I belong firmly in the GKChesterton camp. We've often fought on the same side of this issue at various blogs. If you're losing the war, you fire the general, but keep the troops. That's all I'm saying. I can, in fact, give you scriptures if you like that say explicitly that specific graces are provided for women because of their particular moral infirmities--as compared to men. Those infirmities do exist among men as well, but in lesser degrees, and for different reasons; usually because they have compromised themselves, and not as a function of design.

KD said...

Electric Angel, I was wondering if you could cite some research showing that a woman's blood glucose levels routinely dip into danger territory, is the same way someone who takes insulin may have the potential to do? Without that, I'm not inclined to buy your theory. In fact I doubt they ever dip out of the normal range, so your Ferrari analogy wouldn't make sense.

There may be reasons for carbohydrate cravings, such as cortisol increases. There is a huge difference between someone that has a blood glucose of 40 and needs to get carbs right away than an individual who simply has a craving.

I'm also curious about your comments about the huge energy expenditure that you mentioned during menstruation. My guess is that the energy expenditure is small and directly linked to the amount of blood lost, which varies. My own thought is that the body needs few extra calories to compensate. Some women might be wise to eat more iron containing foods, depending on the amount of blood loss.

Captain Capitalism said...

It is not to toot my own horn, but because it speaks directly to what you spoke of here:

http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2012/10/why-communism-killed-american-muse.html

The Social Pathologist said...

@ElectricAngel
There is a 2.5% variation in energy expenditure with the menstrual cycle.

I don't dispute the functioning of glucose, fat, oxygen or all the other known and yet unknown factors which influence neurobiology, but the "ghost in the machine" doesn't run on those fuels. And it's the "ghost" which confers moral agency.

People who had suffered ego depletion through mental exertion had times HALF those of people who had made no mental exertion.

There is a huge difference between being able to do something and wanting to do something. Everybody has a hard time sticking to tasks when they are tired, sick or pre-occupied with other things, but the inability to acutate a willed act is not proof of an absence of intention.

Lots of people can't stick to diets so by your logic those same people must want to get fat.


@Cane

I'm saying they will exploit dynamics for the sheer pleasure of having a man do their bidding.

Beta males should be the partners of choice by this type of logic, given their supplicative natures.
Women should be the most happiest with them..........and yet they're not.

The one thing that women absolutely hate is the ability to dominate a man. That's why in this free-for- all-market its the bad boys and not the beta males who get the action.

In fact, if there is any inborn biological imperative in women it would be to find herself dominant self-assured man.

In fact, the more I think of this imperative, the more it seems to contradict the basic tenets of Game.

As for Rollo's writings, I too find them impenetrable at times.

Cane Caldo said...

In fact, if there is any inborn biological imperative in women it would be to find herself dominant self-assured man.

Fully agree. However; I don't think you understood my comparison of women's behavior in this regard to drug abuse. Worse: I'm one of those nuts who takes even Genesis quite literally.

I often spend myself on comments, and my own blog suffers. Maybe I'll work this up into a post.

Mark Minter said...

It is a lazy and cheap analogy to simplify any identification of the Feminine Imperative to Marxism. "Yeah, that's ticket, yeah Marxism. Marxism bad, so anything that gets 'like Marxism' bad also."

Yeah, well the Communist Manifesto contains the best analysis of the business cycle and how boom/bust leads to economic panics that practically has even been written.

And Das Kapital is the best description of the capitalist system produced during the 19th century.

Marx's and Engel's proscription to social problems can be indicted but the analysis and identification of the costs and impacts on society of the capitalist system on 19th century society is without indictment.

And the same goes for those that would write and identify the Feminine Imperative. See, I agree with what they write. And I agree wholeheartedly with the observations that society and culture has a slant, an inherent favoring of women and their biological desires at the expense of men and their biological desires.

I came to the manosphere with a long long long ass long history of observations about society and life in America, not only from viewing America but also by traveling and being able to note the differences in American society and culture with other places.

The Feminine Imperative is exactly that the social and cultural constructs to which to you refer has been slanted by the constant harping and screeching of women to dominate the overall cultural narrative to benefit women.

To me Christianity is a pussy religion that favors women and exists because it does favor women at the expense of the true nature of men. Nietzche noted this over a 100 years ago. Schopenhauer's essay "On Women" is still as valid to day as it was 150 years ago.

You are the last person that has the right to call Rollo Tomassi or Dalrock a simpleton. And I find anyone "Austrian in Economics" to extremely short sided and often quite light intellectually. You "Austrians" tend to get awful smug with completely simplistic economic ideas of Darwinian purity and the inherent "perfection in markets". So I drag that same intellectual rigor, or lack of, that you display in your adoption of "Austrian" economics into any thing you would say about the world in general.

The Feminine Imperative exists and it needs to illuminated and exposed for the social trap for men that it is.

So if I see it as a "Conflict" between men and women, then so fucking what. It is. Whether their is a collective awareness of women that Feminine Imperative exists or doesn't exist, whether it is part of a conscious act on their part, is of no concern to me. How it exists or why it exists is no concern to me.

My only concern is that it does exist and men need to understand that it does so that they can deconstruct cultural, societal, moral values and reject those that merely exists in the benefit of the Feminine Imperative. And to stop being Boy Scouts that let all the girls take the cookies merely because they are girls. The world is a zero sum gain. It is now time to stop opening doors and throwing coats over puddles to bitches that laugh at you when you do.

I am more nihilistic actually, I say a man should throw all morality in the garbage and construct his own values and consciousness. A thing works for him and in his interest or it doesn't. It is in his own personal benefit or it isn't. So much of what constitutes moral value is not in a man's interest but rather in the interest of some other groups and imposes limitations on his own actions. Morality is more about power than morality.

The Feminine Imperative exists and is real. Ignore it at your own peril.

Dystopia Max said...

"but I've been vocal that evo-psych is rubbish along the lines of phrenology, or alchemy."

Phrenology was a flawed explanation for a not-at-all-flawed common observation-that different human racial groups differ in intelligence. Later on, IQ studies put better and more consistent numbers to the phenomenon.

Obviously those numbers aren't a perfect explanation for black dysfunction, but that doesn't change the statistical reality or the factual experience of the vast majority of those who make contact with the different race of the world on a daily basis.

Whatever your opinion on evo-psych (mine is generally ambivalent,) its defenders are mostly those searching for truthful explanations of observable and statistical experience, and are not alchemists trying to get rich quick through random experiments, or phrenologists trying to find a catch-all explanation that plays well at parties. If they're giving us numbers they're at least trying to do science, and even if they're off base, any criticism that doesn't address exactly why they're off base is going to go over like a lead balloon.

Cane Caldo said...

Whatever your opinion on evo-psych...any criticism that doesn't address exactly why they're off base is going to go over like a lead balloon.

I prefer "...going to go over like a turd in the punchbowl."

Kathy Farrelly said...

Mark Minter.

Better had you posted when you were sober.

Your grammar, and comprehension leave a lot to be desired.

"You are the last person that has the right to call Rollo Tomassi or Dalrock a simpleton."

SP has said no such thing!

The Social Pathologist said...

@Mark Minter

To me Christianity is a pussy religion that favors women and exists because it does favor women at the expense of the true nature of men

A) You're on the wrong blog.
B) You're an idiot.

I say a man should throw all morality in the garbage and construct his own values and consciousness.

Read some Aristotle and Plato. The task is much harder than you think. Being a superman is not some type of amateur sport. The path to nobility is narrow and hard, and when you're stupid you're better off listening to someone who is smarter.

As for your understanding of Austrian Economics, once again you demonstrate your limited cognitive capacity. There's a bigger world out there than Marx and Smith.

ElectricAngel said...

@KD,

Electric Angel, I was wondering if you could cite some research showing that a woman's blood glucose levels routinely dip into danger territory, is the same way someone who takes insulin may have the potential to do? Without that, I'm not inclined to buy your theory. In fact I doubt they ever dip out of the normal range, so your Ferrari analogy wouldn't make sense.

You are correct, they don't go into danger territory, where death could result if sugar is not obtained. I did not intend to give that impression, but the one that their blood sugar does drop, and that that does have an effect. We know that it is unwise for a diabetic to be given the keys to a plane, and we know why. The research detailed in Willpower shows that low-blood-sugar effects obtain at higher than critically low ones.

One can see this in a diabetic, too: they do not lose coordination, but become grouchier as glucose levels drop. Then things get more severe. I have a close relative who tells me that when has woken in the middle of the night with extreme lows, flourescent lights will flicker, and his mind thinks of NOTHING but obtaining sugar. I think that's because low blood sugar has starved the human and mammal brains of food, and left nothing but the limbic, reptilian brain to preserve life. The effects of cyclical energy drop correspond to that first phase of lower blood sugar in diabetics, where social niceties are overwhelmed by the stuff the subconscious throws up.

I'm also curious about your comments about the huge energy expenditure that you mentioned during menstruation. My guess is that the energy expenditure is small and directly linked to the amount of blood lost, which varies. My own thought is that the body needs few extra calories to compensate. Some women might be wise to eat more iron containing foods, depending on the amount of blood loss.
A cycle involves creating a uterine lining well-nourished to allow a zygote to implant. I had read once that this was the source of the blood sugar drop. However, with your prompting, it appears otherwise, at least for diabetic women. After the lining is built, and the week before menstruation, women go through a blood sugar rise (this might in fact not oppose the blood sugar drop in the week previous, as the rise might come about due to lack of need for further investment in this month's non-fetus), and a blood sugar drop the week OF menstruation.

Now, since I'm no expert on the female reproductive system, I'd have to speculate on that blood sugar drop. Do women start constructing a new lining while they shed the old one? Or would it be the following week?

The point remains that women DO experience the swings in blood glucose on a cyclical basis. We now have experimental evidence from scientific experiments to show some of the effects. Again, even if a cycle only drops a woman into low normal, that still leaves less of a buffer against the mental exhaustion that decision-making causes.

TDOM said...

"Evo-psyche is front loaded with biological determinism. Women have the ability to override their biology if they choose so.
It's not like they're automatons to their biological needs or desires. Anorectics, for instance, can override their desire for food for the sake of other goods."

Not really. I will say again, desire and need are two different things. Each of us has the ability to deny our desires, none has the ability to deny our needs. Anorectics may be able to deny their biological need for food for a time, but they must eat eventually or their body begins to shut down and they die. Needs are requirements. Desires are options.

ElectricAngel said...

There is a huge difference between being able to do something and wanting to do something. Everybody has a hard time sticking to tasks when they are tired, sick or pre-occupied with other things, but the inability to acutate a willed act is not proof of an absence of intention.
The point, exactly, about keeping an arm in icewater. No one can do it forever, but those with more glucose CAN o it longer.

The authors of Willpower are either atheists or (more detestably) agnostics; they self-identify as such in the book. But they o have a chapter about religion, and why it is effective. Essentially, adhering to a moral code put forth by a religion offloads the decision-making to a habit, an outside agency, and so permits a person to resist those temptations that might otherwise cause him to succumb.

An that is where you and the book might find some agreement. The authors find it hard to find moral failure where glucose goes low, but the best sorts of people seem to know how to train themselves to avoid the vagaries of temptation: they find ways to avoid exerting their willpower by avoiding temptation. We know that women have much the same biological plumbing and chemical signalling; there has been no biological change over all the earth (well, except maybe for high-fructose corn syrup in the USA) that could account for the worsening behaviour of women. A good father, and the Good Father, can help a woman to train herself in habits that preserve willpower; avoiding temptation is MUCH easier than fighting it.

Lots of people can't stick to diets so by your logic those same people must want to get fat.
It is not my logic. The authors point out that blood sugar is required to resist temptation, and dieting often leads to lowered blood sugar. That this often gets tied up in the metabolic-syndrome-fattened bodies of people today does not help. I think this is the reason for the success of diets like Atkins: by breaking the blood-sugar roller coaster, people no longer suffer the drive to eat that normal dieting brings on.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Héctor said...

It was an interesting discussion, a pity I got late. Unlike many of you, I think that the default state is the dominance of men in the house as well as in the outer world. Otherwise nothing great can be achieved. And I think we are witnessing the results of women dominance, in the home as well as in the outer world (stagnation, decline). This male dominance concept must have been realized by our ancestors thousands of years ago and most likely is one of the pillars of many monotheistic religions, amongst other things was the establishment of a society that could channel all of its men efforts and guaranteeing tangible rewards (a virgin bride who can at least assure the first born not to be a bastard) etc. as well as a greater social status for all men over women, thus satisfying hypergamous women.

In this regard I have to say that whether the patriarchal religions of yore are a lie, they have been the greatest and most useful tool in order to keep male equilibrium and dominance. It's a pity the knowledge of our ancestors was not passed from generation and generation and this disconnect allowed feminine imperative to worm its way into society again (from the bastardization of chivalry to the appearance of female rights advocates and the terminal idiocy to grant the vote for them).

Based on all of this it's almost as if the ancient men knew that women had to be controlled, even if violent measures were required, otherwise they could kiss goodbye to their people and rights. And guess what, they were right.

Thursday said...

I find the way the distinction between needs and wants is being framed here extremely tiresome. All needs (at least those that one perceives) are also wants. You need food, therefore you want it. Some wants are just wants, but needs are also wants.

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