Monday, February 28, 2011

Hymnowitz Interview

Kay Hymnowitz was involved in a live chat over at the Wall Street Journal. I've excerpted some of the comments and for those who are interested, added some commentary.

Ms. Hymowitz, Your essay draws a number of generalizations from anecdotal evidence, and while it may not be far from the mark, let me respond with an anecdote of my own. I'm a 20-something guy with a bachelors from Harvard and (soon) a law degree from Columbia. I eat healthy, work out, am reasonably good-looking; I have a job lined up at one of the top firms paying $160,000 per year; and I'll be clerking for a federal judge. And after spending years looking for the classy, ambitious, and charming gal that your essay proclaims to be the norm, I've all but given up the hunt. I've met girls at bars and parties, through blind dates and friendly set-ups, and here are the results of my own informal survey. At least two-thirds are far more interested in the "hookup scene" than I am, and couldn't care less about "sensitivity" or "smarts." The other third is either looking to be a Stepford wife, or is so inflated by her own sense of accomplishment that the only suitable match would be a billionare financier or a royal prince. So to put the question back at you: where have the good women gone? [SP: This was my experience as well when I was dating. Lot's of girls acted cheap, but what  used to disgust me the most were the women who would not give me the time of day before I was a doctor but were fawning over me after I became one. I suppose they saw me as a potential income stream. In order to "screen" for this type, when people asked me what I used to do, I'd reply "Human Resources".]

2:05

Kay Hymowitz:
I got a lot of questions in this vein: where have all the good women gone? As I said in my earlier response, I'm not crazy about using the notion of blame here.[SP: Hymonwitz avoids any judgement of female behaviour. I honestly think that she has swallowed the idea that a woman living the Sex and The City lifestyle is mature.] Men and women are reacting to huge changes in our economy and culture and there aren't a lot of clear rules anymore. But to answer a little differently: yes, I think women are sending a lot of confused messages to men and are quite confused themselves[SP: Agreed] in many cases about what they want.
2:07

[Comment From Denise JonesDenise Jones: ]
Don't you think that feminism has played a large role in creating the discrepancy between women's academic achievements [SP: I'd like to see the breakdown of those academic achievements. How many of them are in the hard sciences, math and the classics and how many of them are mickey mouse degrees in office management and creative dance. The deindustrialisation of the West has hit men particularly hard, it perhaps may not be that women have improved as much as men have job opportunities disappear]and men's and in creating the "pre-adult male"? The anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better attitude of women's libbers, or women in general, has put more high school girls in calculus classes than boys. I recall a time when I was the only girl in a roomful of males in the only calculus class offered (the other two girls enrolled withdrew --to many males). Feminism seems to have backfired.

2:08

[Comment From Richard CummingsRichard Cummings: ]
You wonder where the real men are. Don't you think that the women's movement, which denounced overly masculine men for being dominant, has something to do with the feminization of the culture? [SP: Nope. I don't respond to the feminist movement. I ignored them. It was a bunch of stupid males who bought into that crap and rolled over.]
2:09

Kay Hymowitz:
Feminism has played a huge role in the phenomenon I describe in my book Manning Up. Feminism made it possible for women to achieve as well as they have, of course. But some of the less appealing (to my mind) strains of the movement encouraged a kind of "I don't need men" attitude. The truth is women need men just like men need women. [SP: There is a logical error here. How does the I don't need men movement lament that there are no good men?]
2:11

Kay Hymowitz:
To add to that previous point, feminism also made it so that women were sure they could and should act just like men when it came to sex.[SP:True] Some women were fine ith that, but a lot are not. I hear from young women all the time that the hook up culture is part of the problem in meeting good guys. Some women assume hooking up will lead to real relationships. Sometimes it does. But usually not.
2:12

[Comment From Single in the CitySingle in the City: ]
As a woman in her mid-twenties living in Washington, DC, I find myself forced to navigate an unfulfilling--and almost non-existent--dating scene full of these exact 'guys', these post-pubescent boys as I refer to them. My question is what are my alternatives for graduating into adulthood--dating, finding a partner, being respected for being more than a "disposable estrogen toy", other than just giving up on the idea of a husband and family life or making the choice to "got to a sperm bank and get the DNA"--neither of which I find to be a satisfying solution. Is there any alternative for young, professional, heterosexual women other than being victimized by our own privilege?[SP: Victimised by their own privilege. That comment alone tells a whole lot about her mating failure.]
2:14

Kay Hymowitz:
Single: I think most women would agree with your preference here. And it's also, I would argue, good for men to have the responsibilites - and pleasures - of family life. My essay might have left the impression that there are no good men out there. That is just wrong. There are many and you will surely meet one of them. Hang in there!
2:15

[Comment From DKRDKR: ]
Why do video games have such a bad reputation among women? As a young male professional video game developer, I find that bringing up my career is akin to saying I have an STD. Despite my work being creative, challenging, engaging, and very well-paying, my date's uterus shuts like an airlock when she hears what I do. Are women just offended that men have interests that they don't share? And how is this different from the masculine interests of our fathers, like sports, or poker?[SP: Date's uterus shuts like a airlock? Sauve, No?]
2:17

Kay Hymowitz:

I thinkf your question answers itself. Most women would rather you didn't talk about their uteruses - that is, at least until the second date. (joking) Could it be that video games do not encourage the kind of manners and thoughtfulness that a lot of women might want?[SP: No, it's just plane old dorkiness]
2:18

[Comment From RP Westchester CountyRP Westchester County: ]
I enjoied the article as it really hit home. My son is 28, single, living inthe city and has yet to grow up. He grew up in an affluent household( father is MD, mother administrative RN. His is very brite but took 5 yrs to get throug college because of partying etc. He is narcisistic but very popular socially. Girlfriends are numerous but never last more than a month or two. He has a good job on wall street with room for advancement .[SP: And what are you trying to prove? Most young men would say that you have raised him perfectly, for most men he is living in Nirvana. He has no complaints.] My husband and I keep waiting for him to grow up so to speak. We both have a guilty conscience about this and feel that his behavior is as a result of us spoiling him as a child. Interestingly, we have a daughter who is exactly the opposite, very mature, married and quite successful age 30. Should we feel quilty ? RP
2:20

Kay Hymowitz:
RP I keep hearing this sort of story. No, you should not feel guilty. Clearly there is something in the culture that is not doing well by young men.[SP: From the perspective of the average young man, this is what is best about modern western culture, it's an endless cornucopia for the pre-adolescent. ]That's what we're trying to discuss here today.
2:31

[Comment From OffTheCuffOffTheCuff: ]
I'd like to give the perspective of the guy women *claim* to want. I'm a parent of three young children, and I met my wife when she was 18 and I was 20, and married her a few years later. Guys like me get out of the dating scene very quickly, because it's clear to us by then, most women our age prefer to sleep with "bad boys" than men of character. We then have a choice: So I got out, and got out fast. The longer it takes for women wait to learn to choose men based on character, rather than tingle, the more difficult it will be to find us, because the pool shrinks and shrinks fast. Men like us don't want to be your fallback-choice when you're 35 and have slept with half the city. What do you think about women's responsibility to prioritize the kind of men they choose, while still young?
2:32

Kay Hymowitz:
Off the Cuff; This is a theme I've heard a lot from men. Women don't seem attracted to the nice guys. I think this is truer for women in their early and mid twenties. [SP: Here the dark Id of the female pscyhe is opened. With the near absence of any censure or restriction by society, the woman today is free to choose to her hearts desire. The choice of bad boy is not due to faulty character of the woman but simply by the desire generated by his traits. Girls who think with their vagina act on their impulses. Churchy girls feel the same desire but they have other social and cognitive forces enable them to choose otherwise. But the "good" boy without any alpha features will, for the Churchy girl,  be a lukewarm love ] By later in their pre-adulthood they may have grown out of the bad boys but a lot of the good boys are taken.[ SP: They fall off the carousel]

2:33

Allison Lichter: 
We have a few questions on the same topic....

2:33

[Comment From CharlesCharles: ]
Plz enlighten the ignorant....why should a young man want familial responsibilities?[SP: At its most primitive, a man wants to leave a legacy, a bit of himself to the future. It's a primal desire]

2:33

Comment From HankHank: ]
Why is a lack of family responsibilities a state of limbo?

2:33

[Comment From DianaDiana: ]
Why does a man need to be married to be considered an adult? I know PLENTY of men who are single and aren't living at home, have a great job, dating... etc. I consider for them to be adults. But they aren't married.[SP: Anecdote is not argument.] So Kay, do you consider them pre-adult because they're not married? And if so, how many guys are married and still play video games, love Will Farrell, and have unclean houses? [SP: And the divorce rate is 50% for what reason. Retarded commentator, women initiate divorce because they find their husbands unsatisfying.  Most women don't leave their husband to run to another man, its just that perpetual adolescent and irresponsibility is a turn off to women. As  a greneralisation, women don't like responsibility, that does not mean that they can't be responsible, it's just that they like to be a relationship where the other party is capable of acting in a way that is responsible. They don't have to carry all the psychic load.]Probably the same number... they just have a wife that keeps it under wraps from the rest of the world.
2:35

Kay Hymowitz:
A man does not have to be married to be an adult, nor does a woman. But adulthood has always been intertwined with marriage and children IN EVERY SOCIETY. That's because rearing the next generation is about the most important thing we do. I don't mean that in a sappy way. I'm thinking in terms of social needs here.

2:35

[Comment From BozBoz: ]
Kay, but don't most professional women who have gone to the trouble to get a solid education want to wait until their 30's or later to have kids anyway? What's the point of marrying in your twenties, or growing up and settling in your twenties[SP: Legitimising the carousel] when you will live to be 80-90 yrs old. Especially considering that most women don't even know who they are until their thirties?
2:37

Kay Hymowitz:
Boz; you're right. A lot of women want to wait.[SP: Experience life, euphemism for riding the carousel.] Here's the problem: women in their thirties do not have the same pool of men to choose from that they have in their twenties. It's a sad and painful truth that men in their thirties remain attractive to younger women. Women do not attract younger men, by and large. This is what I describe in my book as a mismatch between biology and culture.[SP: Or fantasy clashing with reality]
2:38

[Comment From Grady StebbinsGrady Stebbins: ]
This is an interesting topic. I honestly think men will adapt to whatever circumstances around them dictate is necessary for (sexual) success. If women desire a family-head, "old fashioned" type of mate (as their fathers likely displayed), men will adopt that role. With women insisting on a more serious role for their own lives, possibly they respond more positively toward juvenile and entertaining (funny) behavior in men. Admittedly I fall partially in your demographic, 26, college education, successful at work, and in a long term relationship with no immediate intent to marry. My girlfriend responds much more to me making her laugh then if I were to balance the checkbook exactly (which I do anyways, for good measure.) I'm curious what you think the effects of women changing their responses to male behaviour would be?
2:39

Kay Hymowitz:
Grady; I share your belief that men pretty much adapt to what women demand of them.[SP: Bingo, feminism would have been stopped dead in its tracks if men stayed to the script. Yet feminism's greatest triumph was intertwining female "liberation" with sexual liberation. Most men, worshipers of the the pussy God, were more than happy to tear down the Western Edifice for a chance at a greater amount of poon.] This is a sore point among a lot of women; they don't see why they should be in charge of "civilizing" men. [Most women realise that they can manipulate a man with sex. And once they can manipulate him they having noting but contempt for him. Hint. libido killer.] But that irritation doesn't change the equation.
2:39

[Comment From NicholasNicholas: ]
There's an assumption in the original article that marriage is for the purpose of having children- which is largely not true in American society any longer. I wonder if some of the rejection of commitment is tied to a similar rejection of having children. I know it is true for myself.
2:41

[Comment From StuStu: ]
Hi Kay, previous generations didn't marry and settle down because of social needs, they did so due to cultural norms with respect to roles of men and women. I am skeptical that men of 200 years ago were any more interested in marriage and monogamy than they are now, it's just that it was more difficult then to have access to sex without marriage and kids.
2:42

Kay Hymowitz:
Interesting comment, Nicholas. My reading of history and anthropology is that     marriage was designed largely for the purpose of raising children. A lot of young men - and women - in their twenties think they don't want kids. I get it. A lot of people are having a good time and enjoying their careers. The women, at least, often change their minds when they reach their thirties. According to most surveys, though, the large majority of men and women say they want to marry and have children - someday.[SP: IVF allows one to postpone the day of reckoning.]













26 comments:

The Prince said...

I'm in the unusual position of having a substantial amount of resources that I am responsible for guarding and using wisely. In the biblical sense, I am the servant who has been entrusted with the "ten talents": certifiable genius intelligence, excellent health including good looks and slow aging, kindly parents, good discipline, an inheritance worth several billion dollars, a strong distaste for corruption and deception, a noble purpose for my work, and a kind and gentle nature.

(None of this is even a slight exaggeration. I did nothing to earn these things. Acknowledging that I have them obligates me to use them correctly.)

Part of my duty to advance the cause of Order and Goodness is to understand that I will not live forever. If I live and spend my time purely for hedonistic pleasure without thought to the future, these great treasures will all be used up and dispersed. Thus I have an obligation to pass these genetic, material, and moral assets on to the next generation of children.

Our family has already discovered that entrusting such treasures to other than blood relations tends to turn out very poorly. For unfortunate reasons beyond our control, I am the last of my line. Thus it falls to me to find and marry a young lady appropriate to the task of bearing and raising the children who will be tasked with using these treasures for noble purposes when I am gone.

This task has proven to be rather challenging. Fortunately, my calling involves me obtaining advanced education at an elite university with a sizable number of women of very high intelligence.

Unfortunately, many of these young women seem to be focused on damaging their intelligence with alcohol or drugs. A great many seem to be very interested in Feminism, which I have experienced to be quite incompatible with my objective. I am very kind and sensitive by nature, and past experience has shown that these women would exploit that nature to harm me.

Most disturbingly, very few of the women I encounter seem to be particularly attractive physically. One of my weaknesses is that I tend not to pay enough attention to this, although I know from my own experience that a beautiful mother tends to produce healthier offspring. Those that are pretty enough seem to be largely interested in men possessing brute strength and athletic ability, which is understandable, and have a rather unkind attitude towards men who do not, which is less so.

I have been advised at various times to "practice" seducing women of limited quality so as to acquire the skills needed to "attract" the proper lady. The results have been unfortunate: several ladies (including some kind Catholic girls) came to the conclusion that they were being seriously considered for marriage when they were not. I refuse to participate in these games any further as I find harming women in this way quite corrupting. Now I only approach women who I think may be right and cease "leading them on" when they prove to be otherwise.

I have no doubt that my diligent search for a proper mate will eventually succeed. What does concern me is how the men with "five talents" will find a way to pass them on. Of the honorable and decent young men I know, very few have good prospects for finding a good wife.

mnl said...

Thanks for the interview and running commentary, SocPath.

Yet one other explanation for Hymnowitz' complaint is closely related to the idea of the "Apex Fallacy". I think you say as much--albeit in different words--midstream through your running commentary.

The term was coined by Bernard Chapin (http://isentinel.us/index.php/article/450) and extended by Zed in a Spearhead article [http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/01/10/implications-of-the-apex-fallacy/].

Now, I can't explain it any better than Zed does, but only a little more briefly: Given that women are instinctively hypergamous, the more successful the woman in traditional male pursuits, the more likely she is to make a Hymnowitz-like complaint about there not being enough "good" men.

From Zed's Spearhead link above: A woman who is herself at level 7, and will only consider men at levels 8, 9, and 10, restricts herself to a universe of 1+4+9 potential mates, or 14 total. A woman at level 2, has 1+4+9+16+25+36+49+64+81=285 potential mates – more than 20X what the woman at level 7 has. Given the fact that men are not, as a general rule, hypergamous, any woman at or below his level is a potential mate, so a man at level 7 has 16+25+36+49+64+81+100=371 potential mates, or 26.5X as many potential mates as a woman at his own level has.

So, yes, Hymnowitz' fails to see how her very own gender rewards, perpetuates, and has even created the very male behavior she complains about. This much has been said over and over very eloquently. However, almost by an axiom related to female hypergamy, Hymnowitz will also never, ever be able to fully avoid it.

The Social Pathologist said...

@MNL

I wrote something similar here.

I personally think educating women a good thing as educated women are far more attractive than the dull women.

Where the manosphere errs is in assuming that educating women was a mistake. Their solution does seem that if we keep women uneducated and dependent on men then the natural hypergamic order will be restored. This is idea is echoed in socialism, where the solution to poverty is to level down. This makes everyone poorer in the long run.

What men need to do is hit the books and studies and start making something of themselves. I see a restoration of the hypergamic order happening best when men stop playing X box and start developing some of Castiglioni's ideas with regard to being a man.

When it comes to culture, I'm quite capitalist, I want the wealth of everyone to increase.

The Social Pathologist said...

@The Prince.

I think you're pulling my leg, since I can't imagine billionaires frequenting my blog.

But assuming there is some truth to your description of yourself, then I'm actually quite heartened that there are still people of wealth and a sense of noblesse oblige around.

Thus it falls to me to find and marry a young lady appropriate to the task of bearing and raising the children who will be tasked with using these treasures for noble purposes when I am gone.

Picking a good lady is hard, but picking your offspring is harder. I seen bad children in the best of families. I don't envy your task, especially when large sums of money are involved.

Of the honorable and decent young men I know, very few have good prospects for finding a good wife.

It's hard. Once, again especially if they get a whiff that you have money. The worst of women are attracted to money like bees to honey. My wife was one of the very few women who thought my profession a turn off. She wanted us to have a "connection" and felt that I may have been too high brow for that. Personally I'd disguise my wealth.

Still I think the best predictors of a good mate are.

1) A real believer as opposed to social believer.
2) Virgin or near virgin.
3) Stable family.
4) A couple of minor vices (If they're too perfect there is something wrong. It's unnatural)
5) Qualifier, tattoos are a big vice.
6) Polite and fun.
7) How she treats waiters and cleaning ladies. (Run for the hills if she treats them badly)
8) Bit goofy.

Good luck.

stillcode said...

@The Prince

In addition to what the SP has said in choosing a mate, don't forget to take a look at foreign women. Studies have shown that international marriages have a lower divorce rate than domestic marriages. You should have the financial resources to travel and with your intelligence it should not be too difficult to pick up a new language or two over the course of a couple of years. I would advise you to not flaunt your wealth whether you decide to look for a mate locally or abroad. Good luck in your search.

Novaseeker said...

What men need to do is hit the books and studies and start making something of themselves.

See, I don't really think that is the problem.

The guys Hymowitz and her gaggle of young women are pissed at are not the losers in mom's basement playing X-Box. They are guys with good educations and good jobs who just can't be bothered committing to their peer women. They *are* hypergamously attractive, as they are getting girlfriends and sex -- we're not talking about lower betas and omegas here (I'll bet that Hymowitz doesn't care about these guys at all, really), but the alphas who are basically avoiding commitment. They're getting paid and getting laid -- why would we expect them to change that up?

If we alpha up the rest of the guys, as you wrote in your other piece on this, most likely we will get a huge increase in pump-n-dump, and not a surfeit of alphas who are interested in commitment and marriage.

The problem is the sex culture, not male educational achievements. As long as sex is being handed out to some men like candy, the men who are getting these candy handouts aren't going to change up what they are doing. Why would they? They have an independent career, a great cash flow, independence to spend whatever time with the boys they want, and girlfriends and sex aplenty.

Oh, that legacy business? Not important to a *lot* of guys any longer. That's also a cultural issue, in terms of values, but there it is.

The Social Pathologist said...

@ Novaseeker.

You see, I read her article differently. I think the main thrust of her argument is that men don't want to grow up into responsible adults. I don't think that she was so much concerned about the commitment issue as she was about men seeming content with the frat boy/ Star trekker existence.

The thing is as women due "mature" their biological imperative forces them to find a suitable mate, looking at her options (in her 30's) all she sees are an ocean of frat boys and star trekkers with whom she does not want to commit to. What they are lamenting is the lack of attractive men to whom they can commit to.

The thing is, to a certain degree, there is some flexibility in what women perceive as alpha traits. Responsibility and maturity being attractive as she gets older.

I agree that Feminism has been the woman's worst enemy. There will always be a group of men who will want to commit for romantic reasons, but for the others, all the traditional incentives have vapourised and instead, disincentives have been put in place.

The problem is the sex culture, not male educational achievements.

I'd think you'd find that even if we could turn the clock back with regards to sexual issues, a lot of women would rather live alone than mate with a beta or omega. The thing about a lot of single mothers is that they end up remaining alone, by choice. Lot's of women have said that they'd rather live a lone than with a loser. A woman is most happy in a hypergamous order and a man's gotta create that in his relationship if he expects to have a happy one. If a woman is smarter and more cultured than she is, raw sexuality will not be enough in the long run. She's gonna want that "intelligent coversation".

But yes, overall its a Western Cultural problem.

Novaseeker said...

I'm really not so sure about that.

My sense is that she is using the image of the star trek loser to cover what she is really talking about. She mentioned in the first article that the men have girlfriends, and also live-in girlfriends in some cases. These aren't Star Trek omegas. She's using the omega image to cover the "problem" that these guys won't commit.

But in any case, the answer to that question lies in her book, and I'm not terribly inclined to read it at this point.

I do agree that if you want a successful relationship with a woman, you need to be the alpha in some way. No-one is entitled to have someone be attracted to them if they are not behaving in an attractive way.

I think, however, that most guys in today's culture aren't up for that for various reasons, some cultural, some personal. As a result, I expect we'll see quite a few single mothers and a growing number of guys who are just drifting. I'm not sure they'll all be terribly unhappy, though -- the guys that is.

On the education issue, again there are plenty of women with bachelors degrees who aren't terribly bright, sophisticated or deep culturally or intellectually. Quite a number of them (nurses, social workers, school teachers, government workers etc) are happily paired up with tradesmen and police officers and that type of guy. The women who really need super-duper intellect power from men are the super-educated women, and at that level there is much *less* of a gender gap than there is below it. So, again, not to sound like a broken record, these guys are around for the super-educated women, but they aren't doing what the super-educated women want them to do.

Will S. said...

@ Novaseeker:

My sense is that she is using the image of the star trek loser to cover what she is really talking about. She mentioned in the first article that the men have girlfriends, and also live-in girlfriends in some cases. These aren't Star Trek omegas. She's using the omega image to cover the "problem" that these guys won't commit.

Agree, but I suspect she doesn't realize she's doing this, i.e. that she's doing it unconsciously, simply lumping together the badboys and the betas, without realizing it, simply because she, like Klausner and the other young women she cites, she doesn't like either kind of man. I think Klausner and the rest of the young women Hymnowitz sympathizes with, don't appreciate the distinction, either; they just lump all men they can't or don't wish to "settle" for, together (even if they were happy to ride the badboy cock carousel, beforehand). It is as bad as their equally clueless, unthinking penchant for only seeing the top alphas, and mourning and bitching about the "glass ceiling", failing to appreciate the mass of men at the bottom who not only don't and never will reach such levels either, but who end up earning far less than the yapping yentas themselves. Women today just don't see the men they don't care about; most men seem to be practically invisible to most women.

Tom said...

The thing I find darkly amusing about the male complaints is they often simultaneously mention that (1) they dislike appearance obsessed SATC women and (2) of course they're only interested in pretty women.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Personally, I find the whole women are now all like "X" as ridiculous as men are all like "Y".

I think the only thing that has really changed is that (1) society had made it easier for vapid, appearance-obsessed men and women to remain unmarried and become bitter (as opposed to 'old' days when they would get married and become bitter) and (2) we've got the internet so they can all get together (well, males and females separately) and complain about the other sex.

You're not a sex-obsessed dribbling moron whose idea of paradise is endless sex with 18 year-old bombshells, and neither are the vast majority of your friends. Then why assume that everyone of the opposite sex is a fashion-obsessed moron whose idea of paradise is endless sex with 25-year old alphas?

(The 'you' in the above para is generic...)

The Social Pathologist said...

@Tom

Personally, I find the whole women are now all like "X" as ridiculous as men are all like "Y".

There is a difference between generalisations and universalisations.
Modern culture has definitely moved the mean.

The Social Pathologist said...

@Will S

Women today just don't see the men they don't care about; most men seem to be practically invisible to most women.

Good Comment.

Tom said...

Modern culture has definitely moved the mean.

If you mean the mean in overall behaviour, I'd quite agree. The behaviour of shallow men and women has changed enormously.

However, if you mean that there are a greater percentage of shallow men and women, then I disagree.

I think your conversation is relevant, but only to that portion of the population. My fear is that those who are not much experienced may start to believe this Internet view of the world is *all* of reality and that would be a pity.

After all, the pool of those who actually have a shot at relationship happiness (i.e. kind, compassionate, diligent and respectful, but not necessarily glamourous individuals) isn't *that* large. It doesn't need to be decreased any further by pretending it doesn't exist.


I'll agree the mean has shifted in terms of behaviour of, shall I say, the "shallow quarter". But I'm not at all certain that the percentage of the population in the "shallow

Tom said...

Oops - the last para should be deleted.

CSPB said...

@SP
There is a difference between generalisations and universalisations.

That is a key distinciton. I have lacked your expression to explain it to others. The best post I have seen on Generalization is:


http://fedrz.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/in-general-people-who-dont-generalize-are-idiots/

occultrick said...

I just want to say that the guy who said his dates' uteri shut like airlocks is now my hero. I don't care if he's suave or not. That phrase deserves to be taught to future generations.

Anonymous said...

The Prince should set up a 'corporation sole' with an annual stipend of a pittence and it wouldn't matter who he married.

Anonymous said...

'shuts like airlock'

Reminds me of the time Dilbert was dating.

"All you do is grunt and agree with me. You're TOO perfect! You've been coached!"

"I'm an engineer."

"NOOOOOOOOoooOOOOOO!"

Austin said...

@Tom Personally, I find the whole women are now all like "X" as ridiculous as men are all like "Y". There is a difference between generalisations and universalisations. Modern culture has definitely moved the mean.

Anonymous said...

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