Monday, October 19, 2009

Alpha Submission.

Trawling through the pabulum of the blogosphere yields usually not much more that the inane ramblings of the inane, but every now and then you hit an iceberg which stops you dead in your tracks. One such post, by commentatrix Aoefe, deserves high praise. Read it here.

I've got to admire Aoefe for "coming out" and admitting that she likes being submissive. In these days of enforced behavioural androgyny masquerading as equality, I found it refreshing to hear from someone who does not feel the need to boss someone around and is quite happy to let someone else take control. The comments box makes for interesting reading and it got me thinking, what exactly is submissivity? Or, more importantly, what is feminine submissivity? I got the impression the Aoefe had some trouble articulating the type of submissivity that she had in mind. I hope this helps.

As we are trying to understand the male female dynamic, our understanding needs to be relational and distinctive. I propose to look at this from the male perspective, and define femininity as it is understood in the real world, as the features present in a woman that make her attractive to a man. Some may quibble with this definition but the attraction a man feels towards a woman can be pretty much predicted on the basis of on the universally recognised qualities that a woman can possess. It also needs to be recognised that there will be a degree of variance in the perception of femininity dependant upon the particular tastes of the male, but common sense tells us that there are certain self-evident norms which can be distinguished.

Assuming we are not asking the simian end of the bell curve, we begin by asking ourselves what qualities man finds pleasing in women. Factors such as high intelligence and orginsationa skills are qualities that a man may find attractive in both sexes so they really aren't to be considered feminine. What we are interested in the qualities that are particular to women. The list, though by no means exhaustive, would include things like physical beauty, refinement in speech and action, a certain delicacy of being, emotion, cleanliness and so on. These features are the the ones which attract men to women, men consider them feminine, men find them pleasing.

Femininity also tends to be a bit of all or nothing affair. A woman who looks great, speaks politely in public and is gracious, does not have it if she farts in public. Likewise, a woman may have good manners and girly emotions, but if she is morbidly obese she is not really considered feminine. A woman who yells and argues at her husband, even if justified, in public is not considered feminine. Femininity tends to be a quality that requires a certain amount of self-control to achieve and hence femininity is a choice; an act of the will.

This line of thinking is confirmed in women who choose to act in ways that is considered unfeminine. Many porn stars are physically attractive but most men do not consider them feminine. Many feminists usually act in ways which are deliberately masculine and are said to be feminine only in their physical sex and are devoid of any femininity.

Now what the will does is determined by the nature of the person; an evil man does ill, a good man good, a rude and brutish man will perform rude and brutish acts and so on. A woman then with a feminine nature feminine way and since we have said that our definition of femininity are the qualities of a woman which a man finds attractive, a consciously choose to be feminine will deliberately act in a way which pleases men; it's in her nature. I think Aoefe is right, that a feminine woman wants to act in a way that appears superficially submissive; the femine woman wants to be pleasing to her man.

Now the important point here is to consider why she is acting in this way. What are her psychic drives? What motivates her to this course of action?

Well in the first instance, a woman may chose to act in this way because she wants to. In other words, her actions are not forced by external pressure or internal psychological factors. This woman is content with herself and her actions. She retains what psychiatrists would call an "internal locus of control"

Eternal observers of this woman's relationship with a man would view the woman's relationship as submissive. The woman in this relationship would aim to please her man and may appear to be making many sacrifices for him. But they would fail to recognise that the woman is doing this out of choice and not coercion and that there is no submission at all. Thus your traditional woman who freely chooses to stay at home and live the Stepford wife lifestyle, is pilloried by her feminist sisters who mock her "submissive" lifestyle. The feminists are the one's who have got it wrong. The woman and the man in this type of relationship have complemented each other and they are actually psychological equals, this is a relationship of equality. The feminists, through social opprobrium are the ones trying to get the woman to accept their ideology; they are the coercives.

Many people who have astutely observed the nature of many Mediterranean marriages will recognise this woman. She has her man, she looks after him through her marriage and regards feminists, particularly Anglo-feminists, with contempt. In no way is she coerced by her husband to do anything, she runs the house and he whatever else. Labour is not divided according to negotiation but through natural adaptation.

It also needs to recognised that the "externalities" of the relationship don't really matter. A woman may have a highly successful career and the husband may stay at home. The point being that the husband and wife have both achieved a mutually satisfying relationship within the context of her feminine nature. They complement each other. But the important point here is that she hasn't negotiated the position like a business partner or an "equal", rather she has found a man who both compliments her femininity and her ability; a sort of lock and key relationship. So, for instance, a traditional woman of this type marries a traditional man, while a more modern type of woman will marry a man with more modern views but within a traditional framework. This woman's mate is her complement, not her equal.

Aoefe is Alpha feminine. She wants an worthy man whom she can please. Note that the important point here is a worthy man (something I wish to get into at a later post), her "submission" is only to her man of her choosing. Paradoxically, she is still in control when she submits. To men whom she does not feel a romantic attachment to, there is no submission.

The next type of relationship is the one that is commonly seen in women from the Protestant influenced countries(they are the ones most strongly influenced by Feminism), these are the beta females. This is a woman who, through social conditioning, has developed traits which are disagreeable to men but who still wants a relationship with a man. This type of woman is torn between living a life that she wants and getting a man to love her. Her socially conditioned repugnance is at odds with her desire to find a mate and her adaption to this situation is one of internal submissively. She has some control over her life but lives in mortal dread of spinsterhood and this dread compels her to do whatever is appropriate to find a mate. This type of woman wears femininity like a mask, using it as a useful expedient and dropping it once she is psychologically secure in a relationship.

This is the type of woman who "changes" after marriage. Prior to getting married her femininity is proportional to the degree in which she wants to get married. After she is married "the inner beauty within" comes out and the woman which the man has married becomes the disagreeable and unfeminine woman that she is. The other victim of course in this type of marriage is the man, who thought he was purchasing one bill of goods and instead ended up with another. The fun loving beautiful sexual woman he thought he was marrying becames a emotionally cold asexual shrew. When the inevitable divorce happens, she assumes her mask again till the cycle is repeated. It is from this cohort of women that the feminists come from. They want men to love them even when they are unlovable, and believe that the problem is with men for this state of affairs. Men need to change they say. They constantly blame other factors for their unhappiness beside themselves, the classic behaviour of those with an "external locus of control".

In their instance their external locus of control is actually internal. Their culturally conditioned behaviour is at war with their natural desire to find a mate. This type of woman is the beta submissive: Submissive to her fear of loneliness. The "betaness" of these women is in proportion to both their absence of feminine traits and their desire to get married. The more beta, the less happy. Some of the women never drop the mask, such is their fear of loneliness, instead living their years in the "comfortable concentration camp" of marriage. These women chafe at the situation that they are in, and as such are miserable and asexual. Universalising from her own particular situation she believes that all marriages are like hers and pillories both the institution, the women who find happiness in it and men who find her unattractive.

The greater beta's of this group of women are those who allow their men to "rule" over them, fearing a loss of love if they do not submit. They follow their masters orders out of fear of rejection, not love and chafe at their loss of dignity. The alpha submissive has usually picked a mate whom she knows will probably not ask her something stupid and who will value her advice when she disagrees with him. He will consult with her rather than rule over her though every now and then he will put his foot down, but this will be the rare exception rather than the rule.
She will submit. Frequently he will be right, and when he is wrong he will admit it.

Finally, at the bottom of the list are the omega women. These women are so devoid of femininity and normal norms of human behaviour that men treat them with utter contempt. There is no degradation that they will not submit to in order gain some form of masculine approval. These women will turn a blind eye to child sexual abuse by their partner, pimp out their bodies and are willing to be the subject of any abuse. These women usually settle for the utter dregs of society. Sluts with a known reputation, aged hookers, drug users, etc. form this bottom rung of society. Their life is miserable and a warning to the observant.

The whole point about the submissisivenss that Aoefe advocates, is that it is the submissiveness of a woman in control of herself and happy in her relationship, this is the submissiveness of femininity. Aoefe wants to be no one's chattel, she wants to be their complementary mate. She is to be commended for swimming against the tide.


Unknown said...

Thank you for putting it into the words the way you did. I love the feminine focus - very well said. Yes I believe it is a choice to be submissive and one done willingly and with love to a man worthy of it. I don't think this relationship is a far fetched one - but one which is vilified because of our current social climate. I think this will change - the pendulum always swings the other way. For now I'm content to be open with my opinion if it will only give men and women pause for thought.

Thank you.

David Alexander said...

The woman in this relationship would aim to please her man and may appear to be making many sacrifices for him. But they would fail to recognise that the woman is doing this out of choice and not coercion and that there is no submission at all.

The problem is that for some of us, their choice to "submit" out of her own choice is revolting and sickening, and a sign of some type of mental deficiency. In turn, I could never allow myself to allow somebody to sublimate herself to me out of some perverse desire to please me.h

The Social Pathologist said...

You don't understand, there is no "submission" by the alpha female. Making other people happy is what she lives for. Be it her husband, family or friends, her actions may appear submissive, but her motivation is not.

Poetry of Flesh said...

While I found this post mostly interesting, I also found it working within a very narrow framework based on a certain value-set that I continue to see recurring in the PUA community.

I don't have time right now to address everything that stands out to me, but there are entirely too many generalizations in this post, along with a heavy emphasis on Western feminity and desirability, along with a glorification of sex-based social submission as opposed to purely sexual submission, which the lines seemed to be indistinct and undefined on Aoefe's post, making it seem more sensationalized than not.

I might be back later to elaborate, if my workflow allows.

Tupac Chopra said...


The problem is that for some of us, their choice to "submit" out of her own choice is revolting and sickening, and a sign of some type of mental deficiency. In turn, I could never allow myself to allow somebody to sublimate herself to me out of some perverse desire to please me.

I don't think you'll ever have to worry about that situation occuring in your life, David.


I don't have time right now to address everything that stands out to me, but there are entirely too many generalizations in this post, along with a heavy emphasis on Western feminity and desirability, along with a glorification of sex-based social submission as opposed to purely sexual submission, which the lines seemed to be indistinct and undefined on Aoefe's post, making it seem more sensationalized than not.

I'm not surprised you would feel this way. You probably epitomize the sexually-liberated, yet emotionally un-feminine contingent.

One of the aspects of modern porn I find so dispiriting is the growing number of young, beautiful, nubile women who willingly perform sex acts in the same manner they might ride a horse. There is no sense of delight, or discovery, or sensuality. Sasha Grey exemplifies what I'm talking about. A beautiful girl no doubt. But I find it somewhat unnerving when I see her in a gangbang with 3 different cocks filling her holes, and her expression (as she narcissistically mugs for the camera) is one of total calm, near-indifference, "been-there-done-that", even a hint of boredom. I hardly find that erotic.

I much prefer seeing young, fresh faced girls whose eyes spring wide open in shocked delight as they feel the first few inches of penetration. In such cases there is a quasi-romantic (even in porn) energy flow between two *humans*, versus two unfeeling pieces of meat.

And I am no prude in any sense of the word. I can be downright nasty in my sex. I just don't feel very turned on by a girl who can take a 10 inch dick up her pooper and still have the composure to recite the alphabet.

Poetry of Flesh said...


I would never consider myself sexually "liberated". That involves the idea that I had to be constrained or imprisoned by something in the first place. Our sex-values are simply social constructs, which means it's not a sexual liberation at all.

As for being emotionally masculine, first off, you are emotionally masculine, and I find it amusing that you would find your own emotional set-up undesirable in your partners. Second, whenever I go through the psych evaluations of masculine/feminine personality/mental/emotional lay-outs, I nearly invariably end up being around 45/55 (male/female).

That isn't really the point, though. We all have masculine and feminine traits.

As for me epitomizing anything... I know you enjoy lambasting women like me, at least online. You have a mental construct of what and who you think I am, and you apply your values to it and then lump us into a solid group of near-worthless females who don't know how to love, how to enjoy sex, how to keep a man. We're useless sluts, destined for a dried up fate of marriage to a lower-middle class beta male who feels lucky to have us, even while we cuckold him, for which he should feel lucky because sex with someone like me is a purely mechanical act that we engage in only to get what we want.

Sure. Keep believing that. It never fails to surprise me when someone who seems intelligent bases my entire emotional and mental set-up off of my sexual activity.

As for young, fresh-faced girls, of course. It's easy to feel manly and sexually powerful when you've got an untried 18 or 19 year old who has probably had one or two partners in her own age range with her own minimal level of experience. As a bonus, it involves less work.

If someone can keep composed while you're having sex, then you need to change what you're doing. That's not an insult, just a general approach I have. If I'm going down on a guy and he can speak coherently, I'm doing something wrong and need to change techniques immediately. No matter how experienced or jaded a woman is, you should be able to do something to knock her out of her apathy. It's a challenge, telling you to do more, be more, learn more, step up. The only thing young girls can do is stroke your ego. Why not just make your sexual performance better?

The Social Pathologist said...

Our sex-values are simply social constructs, which means it's not a sexual liberation at all.

Would you mind elaborating?

Poetry of Flesh said...

"Our sex-values are simply social constructs, which means it's not a sexual liberation at all."

A popular word choice to describe stepping outside or "breaking free" of social constructs (especially, as we know, in the gender and sex front) is "liberation".

Personally, I think it's a horrible choice. You liberate prisoners from the Bastille, not people from a viewpoint. That doesn't make any sense to me. The changing of a viewpoint is not a matter of being set free, at least in my eyes, but a matter of growing based on experiences.

But this is from my worldview of a sort of postmodernism. So if I believe that no one set of values is correct or more morally sound than another, shifting from being the standard Western woman, however one choses to define that role, to a woman more like me (your descriptor choice may vary, so you can replace the "me" with something that suits you), the original point of view is not a prison or a sort of oppression. I'm not magically "healed" or different than I used to be. The world hasn't opened up like some rich oyster. It's just another view. And it is likely to change as I age and experience new things.

So if I called myself "liberated" or that I experienced "liberation" whenever I had some sort of impactful experience that changed my viewpoints, I'd feel rather retarded. I could be "liberated" every week.

I hope that's the elaboration you were looking for, because if you wanted me to elaborate on sex-values as social constructs, I'd rambling in this comment box all night and nobody wants that.

The Social Pathologist said...

Thank you for your reply. It's consistent with what you have written on your blog.

I think the term your looking for is consistent with the existentialist term "authenticity"; or in other words, living true to yourself(A self that changes with experience).

It's a view that I partially agree with, provided that who you are is what you are meant to be.

Poetry of Flesh said...

But, in that view, how do you know who you are is what you are meant to be?

The Social Pathologist said...

But, in that view, how do you know who you are is what you are meant to be?

In many ways that is the million dollar question.

I had a bit of a perusal through your blog and one of the comments that struck me was that of your need for "purity". I understand the type of purity that you're looking for, but it's the type of purity from which I flee.

I think that the enlightenment has given people the idea that if they can only find themselves, free from any constraint, they will be happy. I disagree.

All human beings are born "damaged" in some way. The natural man is the damaged man, and the purity you seek is the purity of a damaged nature, unencumbered by any restraint.

It is of course that type of purity that I constantly am at war with. My natural state if left unchecked would change my character in such a way that before long I would turn into a bastard, admittedly an intelligent and cultivated bastard. I'm happy that I've got reason and enough psychological strength to overcome my pure natural nature. Reason therefore must restrain the emotion.

In my natural "pure" state, I would do stuff that I really didn't want to do, and as such was not happy with the type of person I had become. It was only by molding my character towards a certain vision that I became more truly myself.

A man has to live according to intelligent rules and master his passions. These rules aren't rocket science, all cultures have near universal agreement on what constitutes the principles of good behaviour. Behaviour which is not just socially useful, but which allows the flourishing of the individual.

Thomistic philosophy taught that man's nature was "naturally damaged" and that this natural damage, the purity which you seek, was not who you really are. As Chesterton said

To the question, "What are you?" I could only answer, "God knows." And to the question, "What is meant by the Fall(damaged nature)?" I could answer with complete sincerity, "That whatevever I am, I'm not myself"

You've got to work at being yourself. It's doesn't come without effort and there is always going to be the urge to slide back to "naturality".

Are you familiar with the works of Anthony Daniels a.k.a Theodore Dalyrmple?. I worked in roughly similar circumstances as he has but we share different philosophical views, our conclusions are the same. You might like this piece.

FWIW, this piece moved me deeply. I know precisely were he is coming from.

Poetry of Flesh said...

Sorry for the delay in response... anti-social tendencies make me... anti-social.

I'm not looking for a purity without restraint. I'm looking for a purity of self, without taint of external influences that are unhealthy for my being. I appreciate restraint. I respect restraint, more than most, I would think, due to my own experiences and upbringing.

I do not believe that we are born damaged in some way, at least on a mental/emotional level. To declare something damaged is to also bring forth the idea of something lacking damage, a state of wholeness. Some would also say that damage is a negative thing, which I also do not agree with.

Nor do I find purity to be a bestial state.

Nor do I find purity to have one definition for the entirety of man.

Purity, for me, is not about unleashing one's id, turning into a selfish, ravaging beast. That's what we are as babies, and I do not advocate that at all.

I do not believe in set rules, especially ones that define the idea of intelligence as a universal.

And, with my education, I've been taught that there are very few universals, and the ideas of good behavior are very much not one of them.

However, I like the idea of working at being yourself. I'm going to have to think on that.

I will read your links, though I cannot tonight, and probably not this week, due to time constraints borne of going out of town, but I will let you know what I think.

The Social Pathologist said...

I'm not looking for a purity without restraint. I'm looking for a purity of self, without taint of external influences that are unhealthy for my being.

What are unhealthy external influences?

I do not believe that we are born damaged in some way, at least on a mental/emotional level.

I do. My belief in the corruption of man's moral nature does not rest on religion but is a self-evident truth. My job has disabused me of any notions of the perfectability of human nature. Evil lies in all of us.

To declare something damaged is to also bring forth the idea of something lacking damage, a state of wholeness.
That's the Aristotlean view point. I like Aristotle.

And, with my education, I've been taught that there are very few universals, and the ideas of good behavior are very much not one of them.

I wish you the best, but I feel your doomed to misery with that view. I too at one point believed in your view. However,who was it, Tolstoy, who said that all happy families are happy in the same way, each unhappy family is separate in its own way? By all metrics, the boring bourgeoisie seem to outdo the exciting crowd. Their sex is even better.As C.S. Lewis said, the song they sing in Hell is "I did it my way".

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, Social Pathologist but I simply do not agree... Alpha animals do not tolerate submission, and fight against it if it is expected of them. I observe feral horses, and we have an Alpha female in that group - she rules all the females, and is very intelligent. And she does not submit to males, either. She will mate with them, when she feels like it, but that's it. She will allow them to fight off other aggressive males, but she won't do anything for the male that she doesn't have to.

And bonobo females, our closest living relative, are not intimidated by males, and do not submit to them unless they feel like it.

Now, you're arguing this submission happens in humans out of 'feeling like it' but the problem is, in the Alpha relationship you have described the woman is ALWAYS submitting, or near all of the time, and that simply isn't alpha behaviour. No, no. The women I know who I would consider alphas have either 'tamed' their men, and their men no longer act like alphas (!) or they simply don't put up with their stick, and have a more beta husband/partner.

You are not taking into account that humans are not natrually monogamous, and no truly alpha animals desire to submit for the rest of their lifetimes; least, not in animals which HAVE alpha/beta types.

The Social Pathologist said...


The problem with the alpha female is that she is a mixture of two traits: Her innate femininity and her personality.

Now your dominant alpha female will, by force of personality and intelligence, actually get what she wants. Her alphaness ensures that she is at the top of the pack. The problem is that her femininity find that situation unsatisfying. Her nature is at war with her personality.

Secondly, animal studies are only useful to a point. There is only so much you can infer from them as there is a massive gulf between man and the animals.

Finally with the alpha females constant "submission" is not what actually goes on. What the woman wants is a man whom she cannot dominate. Even then, in my experience, many quite dominant women enjoy being dominated. We must agree to disagree and allow the real world to justify my view.

M. Simon said...

Dear Doctor,

In the US Medical Profession (especially psychiatry) it is commonly accepted that drug use is self medication.

You might like to start here:


In the journey to change your mind.

BTW the whole anti-drug thing is an attempt (very successful so far) to use social constructs to hide (run away from?) reality. Feminists are not the only perpetrators of lies about human nature.

I note that the Catholic Church has some very smart people running it. Someone among that bunch knows the truth. And yet the Church still pumps out its tired old lies.

You can't heal the afflicted unless you understand in depth and detail their affliction.


Other than the above I liked your post.

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