One of the things that struck me in reading about de Gaulle's life is how Catholic support for the Free French could be predicted by theological position, with "traditionalists" supporting the Vichy regime.
The common perception people have of the Vichy regime is that it was a puppet regime imposed by the Nazis. The thing is that this is not exactly true. It would be more correct to say that it was regime enabled by the French defeat and though it shared a disadvantageous position with respect to Germany, there was much synchronicity between the ideals of it and Nazi Germany. People forget just how respectable Fascism was prior to the Second World. Contemporary history tends to paint the French as "victims" of Nazi conquest yet the reality was that there were many Frenchmen who were supportive of the German conquest of Europe.
People forget that prior to the Second World War, France was deeply divided society, much like the modern U.S., with both Left and Right factions who saw no agreement virtually on anything. The biggest movement on the Right was the Action Francaise movement, which advocated a return to French Monarchy, a repudiation of the French revolution, a restoration of the preeminent position of the Catholic Church in French society and a return to "traditional values". It was anti-Semitic, anti-Protestant, Xenophobic and collaborated, in some instances, quite enthusiastically with some of the more odious Nazi policies.
What was strange about the movement is that it was led by an avowed atheist who was contemptuous of religion, Charles Maurras. He supported the Catholic Faith because it formed part of the "identity" of France but as said before, he thought the faith a bunch of tosh. He did, however, like Vichy.
Now men of quite of quite rudimentary and simple faith would probably feel that there is something intuitively wrong with a position which supports a religion while at the same time regarding it with contempt. But I suppose this incompatibility can be overcome with a rigorous philosophical training and deep spirituality. Enter Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. (RGL)
RGL, who is currently being rehabilitated by certain trad sections in the U.S., was not your ordinary member of clergy. A brilliant Dominican theologian, author of many theological books, who held high ecclesiastical office, ghost writer--and "influencer"-- of several papal documents, he was doctrinal supervisor to John Paul II. As said, he was an exceptional guy, but in many ways he encapsulates the problem of Right Catholicism in the 20th Century. As Etienne Gilson explains:
Posterity will have more leisure than we have, and the future will see things from a distance that is lacking to us. Those who are curious about doctrinal teratology will enjoy unraveling the intricacies of such an alliance. On the political level no explanation is needed. The French people are born fanatics; rightists or leftists, they are always willing to persecute one another in the name of some sacred principle. ....The really interesting question was to know why a Master in Theology belonging to the Order of Saint Dominic, as well as a highly qualified interpreter of Thomism who enjoyed in the Church an unchallenged doctrinal authority, should then have felt duty bound to teach that Charles Maurras and Saint Thomas Aquinas agreed on the notion of "the best political regime."
It is enough to open the Summa Theologiae at the right place to know that this is not true. Yet this theologian was very far from being alone in his error. Laymen of great intelligence and talent did not hesitate to side quite openly with the "party of order". The heart of the problem would be to know how, by what secret channels, Thomism could seem to them to offer a theological justification of the political theory of Charles Maurras. What the royalists hoped to gain from such an alliance is obvious. Saint Thomas is the Common Doctor of the Church. To establish that his political doctrine was the same as that of Charles Maurras amounted to proving that the Political doctrine of Charles Maurras was that of the Church. With this proved, all French Catholics without exception would have been held in conscience to accept the monarchist politics of the Action Francaise. What a haul! Let us resist the temptation to as what peculiar brand of "Thomism" this must have been to feel akin to the positivism of Maurras which, like that of Comte, was deeply interested in Rome but not in Jerusalem.
The Philosopher and Theology
Now RGL wasn't just a supporter of Vichy, he was an enthusiastic one. He was so enthusiastic that he used his doctrinal authority to assert that anyone who supported the Free French was committing a mortal sin. And there is credible evidence that he saw no problem with Vichy's anti-Semitic policies. Now it's one thing when the local village priest comes to a conclusion which is stupid, but when your "best and brightest" is out cheer-leading for an evil government you've got a serious problem. What's even worse is that RGL enjoyed considerable support and esteem in the Vatican well after the evils of the Nazis' and their collaborators were born to light. Remember this is all before Vatican II and its "corruption" by "liberalism".
Apologists for RGL have stated that his religion clouded his theology.
I doubt that.
RGL primarily saw himself as a religious man and his "faith" was sincere. There is no chance in hell that he didn't measure his political actions by the yardstick of his faith. And this is where the problem really lays: How is it that a man, who is gifted in intelligence, a profound ascetic, devoted to religion and who's had the best education that Western Civilisation could have thrown at him come to the conclusion that there was no moral problem with his faith and the persecution of an innocent people and the support of a morally vile regime.
After the war, de Gaulle "leaned on" the Vatican and a quarter of the
French clerical hierarchy were forced to retire. RGL kept his position.
There is something profoundly wrong here, and I think it is here where we must look to understand one of the reasons why religion collapsed in the 20th C.
How is it that a man, who is gifted intelligence, a profound ascetic, devoted to religion and who's had the best education that Western Civilisation could have thrown at him come to the conclusion that there was no moral problem with his faith and the persecution of an innocent people and the support of a morally vile regime.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the answer is as simple as he had not been subject to 76 years of post-WWII "victor's" propaganda? Or perhaps he was much closer to the horrifying subversion, genocide, and other monstrous crimes of the heavily/disproportionately jewish communists in the Soviet Union and central Europe? Could he have paid attention when Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht fomented rebellion and revolution across the border in Germany and not want the same in France? Did RGL know of the fate of the kulaks and the disproportionately jewish secret police that slaughtered and starved them?
RGL got to see and/or read about all that evil and chaos as it occurred, not decades later after the West's alien and alienated ruling class had crafted a self-serving narrative. In the midst of all that, people or a movement that profess order & tradition, affinity to one's co-ethnics, and opposition to the genocidal communists are likely to be looked upon favorably.
If you put yourself in RGL's shoes and walk around a while in them, I bet his perspective will become more clear. But you might have to abandon, for a time, the imposed ruling class narrative model and be open-minded enough to look at things as they were.
I’d like to see some good writing on integralism, the real problems if there are any, which I’ve also seen rise. I’ve seen Catholics charge off in this direction, and basically the only orthodox Catholics I know dealing with its themes are you and John Zmirak.
ReplyDeleteIt seems a bit like an attempted marriage of Christianity and the world. You want a Christian society, but you’re using basically the tactics of the left to get it; the persecution, the secret police, etc. I mean we all recognize the need for force for some issues like criminality etc.,, but the idea that no one can honestly disagree with me, therefore I can kick his teeth in worries me. I also know while Aquinas allowed for restrictions on freedom of religion, he was very prudential about it, not prescriptive. I honestly understand forcibly suppressing something like voodoo, or muti, or diabolism, but lumping in Methodists with that seems like something better handled with prayer and debate if you disagree. Of course since I’m still basically Protestant, I may have a skewed perspective. Persecuting Jews directly seems spiritually dangerous, they’re still Our Lord’s physical family and the curses the Bible puts on their enemies my still apply.
I may be getting some stuff wrong about integralism but I know it’s also a complex issue. Dollfuss and Salazar are lumped in, while Dollfuss was very anti-Nazi and Salazars regime seemed pretty mild by 20th c. standards. I also know some French fascists actually fought the Nazis as well, they saw it was hard to call yourself a nationalist and then submit to your nation being invaded.
@Rooster, well, no.
ReplyDeletePropaganda isn’t magic, the words and deeds of the Nazis themselves work against them. They tried to resurrect the worship of the pagan gods, they subverted marriage with Lebensborn bastard factories, persecuted all the churches, were early on a haven for homosexuals although that stopped later, invaded Poland because reasons, and invaded countries like the Netherlands that just wanted to stay out.
They liked red flags, mass parades, using the word “revolution” organizing society around a “workers state”, and all the other standard grab bag of lmilitant eftism.
Peter Kemp when fighting with Basques in Francois army said they thought it was a shame they couldn’t fight their erstwhile “allies”, the Nazis, because they were “enemigos de Nuestro Senor Jesu Christo”. Evelyn Waugh wrote in one of his novels that the Nazi-Soviet alliance provided moral clarity as if all the e il of the world was united.
We can’t act like it wasn’t possible to see it at the time because some men did see it at the time.
Hoyos:
ReplyDeleteThe crust of ruling class narrative accumulates and hardens over time. Some will never break free of it to look at events with a less-curated point of view.
To make just one point in an attempt to get you to see things from other than a 21st century decadent western perspective, let us look at mass murders. By the time Lenin died in 1924, Lenin and his fellow communists had killed 7+ million. Stalin got another 20-40 million plus by 1953--but Stalin managed to kill a cool 4 million in just a couple years before the AH became chancellor of Germany. And the news of megadeath horrors kept rolling in from the east up through the outbreak of war in Poland and then France.
In contrast, the combined total that can be laid at the feet of the Nazis by the time France fell is less than a rounding error of what happened in the USSR since the revolution. To get support from Germans--and just about anyone else worried about commie terror--the nazis didn;t have to be angels. They just had to be willing to fight the people who had been murdering millions since the end of WWI and not as manically homicidal for their own part.
@Roo_ster
ReplyDeleteTo get support from Germans--and just about anyone else worried about commie terror--the nazis didn;t have to be angels.
And yet..........that is the problem. The theology of St Thomas is specifically on the side of angels. It's a theology that does not align with a convenient devil no matter how useful he would be. And remember, RGL wasn't a politician, he was a theologian his job was to call out the evil in Nazism. He didn't instead he sided with the French version of it. (As did many others)
My family were persecuted by the communists, so I have no illusions about their barbarity. I don't subscribe to the "post war narrative". The thing about the the 20th C is that evil has morphed into many forms. It's of no moral profit to fight the left version of evil while cheer-leading the right version of it.
We are called to be good.
@Hoyos
and basically the only orthodox Catholics I know dealing with its themes are you and John Zmirak.
How ironic! Zmirak banned me on Twitter because he thought I was a fascist!
Evelyn Waugh wrote in one of his novels that the Nazi-Soviet alliance provided moral clarity as if all the e il of the world was united.
This.
I’d like to see some good writing on integralism,
It's stuff I'm still thinking through and I don't think a combox discussion will do it justice. I for one, don't have a problem with a confessional state. But I think it's a huge mistake to make the State a vehicle for salvation. Here we slide very close to Communism. Franco gets a lot of unjustified hate in my opinion. I have no problem with his fight against the Left. My problem is the spiritual desolation caused by his version "integralism". Why, for instance, did it fail in producing a stable catholic society, instead it produced a society that profoundly lurched to the Left. Portugal was the same. There would appear to be something quite toxic to the faith when avowedly integralist policies are pursued.
@SP, genuinely shocked about your history with Zmirak, I’ve read both of you for maybe years at this point and can’t imagine that kind of blow up. Though Zmirak is a bit excitable at times, there’s no way anyone should confuse you with a fascist.
ReplyDeleteI have theories I can’t prove, but I suspect the comparative vibrancy of the American church is down to freedom actually. The orthodox Christian opinion, to my understanding, is there are no Christians who don’t freely choose it.
To kind of dog leg the conversation, a lot of Christian youth basically abandon the faith in college, but I and my sibling did not; the reason being is my father actually believed you can’t force Christianity on anyone really. We were exposed to it, attended church, but never felt really forced into anything so speaking for myself Christianity was always my choice. For a lot of the kids I went to school with I suspect their parents put their thumbs on the scale too hard, and nobody feels good about knuckling under even if you love your parents and they’re not bad people. I suspect their belief wasn’t that strong and they never developed a proper immune system for modern ideologies.
A confessional state can be either way, a forceful thing that encourages dishonesty or eye-service or more like “we honor God because we believe He is real, but we don’t need dishonest voices joining in, do what you think is right”.
Wish I had a better memory but there was a story about David in the OT where a guy came out cursing him and, I want to say Abner, wanted to kill him for his disrespect. David said no, because if the guy was speaking from God, then they’d be fighting against God, and if he wasn’t God might bless David to spite the curser. First recorded defense of free speech possibly.
Fascinating. Learn something every day.
ReplyDeleteI am reading 'Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and The Final Solution in Poland' Approximately 500 men in the battalion directly and indirectly responsible for the murder of 85,000 people. Mind boggling. Would like to think that I would not have participated in the atrocities as a small number of battalion 101 refused to.
Jack
Some of the most American sects like the Baptists and Mormons lauded Hitler and Nazism in the 1930s (Warren Throckmorton has written extensively about this). This is ironic as these groups today practically divinize Americanism to absurd lengths. It seems like many 20th century French intellectuals had made poor judgments when it came to politics. Jaques Maritain had particularly cringe-worthy opinions on a lot of things ranging from his early support for Action Francaise to his later full-throated endorsement of Americanism in the 40s as a Christian civilization. Already the secularizing tendencies were evident then.
ReplyDeleteI have theories I can’t prove, but I suspect the comparative vibrancy of the American church is down to freedom actually. The orthodox Christian opinion, to my understanding, is there are no Christians who don’t freely choose it.
That's the traditional Protestant understanding of religion as religion by choice. For the Catholic view, it is something you are born into.
@Jack
ReplyDeleteNice to have you back. You won't believe it, but I've actually got the book in front of me and have been reading bits and pieces from time to time. It's very depressing and in a way confirms all of Stanley Millgram's work. What's very interesting to me in the book is the "spread" of human behavior. On the extremes you have the sadists and the "saints," in the middle you really have the sheep.
The other interesting thing was the effect of the killing on the men. It made the sadists more evil while it put a terrible toll on the rest. It's one of the reasons why torture is wrong. Not because sometimea the victim deserves what he gets, but because the torture corrupts the torturer.
You'd like to think that if put in that situation you wouldn't do what they did. Let's hope never to be put to that test.
@Anon
Some of the most American sects like the Baptists and Mormons lauded Hitler and Nazism in the 1930s
Fascism had quite a following in the 20's and 30's. It wasn't just the Baptists and the Mormons who were dumb, lots of "businessmen" and "Democrats" were quite enthusiastic about the whole program. A lot of "polite" people were on board.
After the war it's was in the interest of everyone to suffer some collective amnesia.
Jaques Maritain had particularly cringe-worthy opinions on a lot of things ranging from his early support for Action Francaise to his later full-throated endorsement of Americanism in the 40s as a Christian civilization.
Maritain did make some dumb choices. He also gave de Gaulle a hard time initially being eventually swung to the Free French by Yves Simon. (Someone who looks quite solid). I'm not sure that support for democracy can be equated with secularising tendencies. Simon developed a theory of democracy which was consistent with the Thomistic framework.
That's the traditional Protestant understanding of religion as religion by choice. For the Catholic view, it is something you are born into.
That may be the "strength" Protestantism and the "weakness" of Catholicism.
@Hoyos
Zmirak was excitable in the exchange. He didn't do nuance.
C'este la vie.
the reason being is my father actually believed you can’t force Christianity on anyone really.
That's been my approach and my children have turned out religious. But one of the things that's underplayed in discussions about religious "adhesion" is the role of Grace. I really can't emphasise this enough. The assumption of Christian integralism is that religion can be socially engineered through the appropriate societal carrots and sticks, totally evading the concept of Grace.
Yet one of the things that repeatedly comes up is the fact that the Faith can be found in the most barren of places while being totally lacking in environments were everything is conducive to it. God has to "invite" you to become a believer and you have to "choose" to accept the request.
The operating assumption is that God is "on tap" with the Graces and it's there for everyone. I think this view is flawed, but its predicated on a "cuddly" God theology that leaves no room for the with-holding of Grace for whatever His reasons. I think that many don't count on this dimension when it comes to the apostasy in the West. Like you I can't quote the passages, but I know that God has abandoned people to their sins. It think that we don't realise that for all of God's love he does have an "edge", he can get annoyed.
Grace is given at His pleasure and for whatever his reasons, so it's best to be in His good books.
I think you are overcomplicating the matter SP. Post-Vatican II Catholicism is basically the Americanization of Catholicism, making the faith palatable to the post-war political order ("the Potomac flowing into the Rhine into the Tiber"). John Courtney Murray was a CIA asset. Allen Dulles' nephew became a Jesuit Cardinal. There is are dueling cottage publishing industries putting out books claiming Catholicism is perfectly acceptable to either GOP neoconservativism/libertarianism (First Things/Acton Institute) or the Democratic party (America mag). Pope Francis holds conferences about "inclusive capitalism" with Goldman Sachs execs or similar figures.
ReplyDeleteWhy did this happen? By WWI the only great power that was a Catholic Confessional state was Austria-Hungary, and then they fell. There was no Catholic political block of any importance to counter the Communists, Nazis, or Anglo-American liberals. Only puny Med vacation spots like Spain and Portugal remained. Without protection from strong Catholic states (i.e. the laity), churchmen had to cut deals and compromise with non-Catholic powers, in the process accepting some of their principles. Before WWII, the nearest thing to a "third position" between Communists and Anglo-liberals was fascism, and outside of Germany these movements had a catholic character to a greater or lesser degree.
You will surely counter that there is some deep spiritual problem which caused all of the Catholic regimes to fall in the first place, and that if the church somehow figured out and implemented a perfect formula to adapt the faith to the modern world everything would be fine, but unless you actually propose concrete reforms to church's pastoral outreach, preaching, teaching, liturgy, etc. that could constitute this formula, I will remain unconvinced.
The way I see it: (1) there is some way to adapt the Catholic faith to modern industrial civilization and the aftermath of the secular age that would make possible a general revival of the Catholic faith to a near-dominant position to Western societies, or (2) modern industrial civilization and the fallout from the secular age make any such revival per se impossible, and Catholicism will be a niche/fringe religion in perpetuity unless industrial civilization collapses and the world returns to a preindustrial state more conducive to the flourishing of the Catholic faith (as "peak oilers" such as John Michael Greer and James Howard Kunstler have predicted).
On your blog, you have given no such suggestions towards achieving this synthesis of Catholicism and modernity apart from "accept certain protestant ideas" (Vatican II era was this, didn't work), "modernist theologians like Blondel were good" (VII era did that too), "say the pill is OK if you're married but maybe not condoms" (Winnipeg Statement already did this), "use PUA game to find a wife", and your very vague denunciation of "Christian Buddhism". Meanwhile, the "trads"--who have had some real success in terms of vocations, conversions, etc. - are allegedly a problem, as they are crypto-Nazis. This leaves this reader to conclude that the Catholicism-modernity problem is just a fait accompli and we should stop worrying about it, just try to be Catholic the best we can, and let the chips fall where they may.
Post-Vatican II Catholicism is basically the Americanization of Catholicism, making the faith palatable to the post-war political order
ReplyDeleteNope.
Without protection from strong Catholic states (i.e. the laity), churchmen had to cut deals and compromise with non-Catholic powers,
St Peter seemed to do all-right without political protection. God's Grace counts for a lot, even when worldly powers are against you.
but unless you actually propose concrete reforms to church's pastoral outreach, preaching, teaching, liturgy, etc. that could constitute this formula, I will remain unconvinced.
Treatment is secondary to diagnosis.
You will surely counter that there is some deep spiritual problem which caused all of the Catholic regimes to fall in the first place
Large numbers of the clergy supporting Nazi's or Communists is not a sign of spiritual health.
And when one of your chief doctrinal watchdogs is supporting crypto nazis you've got a problem.
Meanwhile, the "trads"--who have had some real success in terms of vocations, conversions, etc. - are allegedly a problem, as they are crypto-Nazis.
There are Trads and then there are Trads. Take for example the TLM, there are those who assert that it is the only authentic way to worship God. So would they censure Christ if he worshiped God in Aramaic?
>There are Trads and then there are Trads. Take for example the TLM, there are those who assert that it is the only authentic way to worship God. So would they censure Christ if he worshiped God in Aramaic?
ReplyDeleteLanguage is a red herring. The problem with the new mass is that it is ambiguous as to the role of the priest, transubstation, the real presence, etc. All the explicitly Catholic/Orthodox elements are played down similar to what was down in Lutheranism or the Reformed churches. All of the Catholic dogmas remain on the books, but the mass as a ritual only reflects what we have in common with the Protestants, so as not to offend them.(Some NO parishes make up for this by having regular adoration time, which offends protestant sensibilities almost as much as the TLM does). This is not a problem with the TLM or any of the eastern Rites, they are clearly non-Protestant.
An hypothetical "Novus Novus Ordo" compromise mass could bring back some older elements but not necessarily all the Latin or every little gesture in the TLM. The core complaint is the changes to the offertory, the canon, and versus populum. Reasonable trads might be OK with keeping (male) lay lectors or an additional reading or guitars if we go back to 1962 in a few key areas.
This was Benedict XVI's plan I think. With enough reforms of the reform the SSPX would cease having reasonable points (as they do now) and would merely be kvechting about trivial details (at least re the liturgy). Pope Francis and the Jesuits instead want the mass replaced by non-liturgical low-church protestant worship services led by "lay ministers" (who could be female) distributing pre-consecrated hosts. This would be "valid" but only as a legal fiction. Compromise with the church's own tradition vs. compromise with protestants.
At least this is my read of the situation as a lay person. Not trying to spread any calumny about the Pope and his intentions.
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves, in C.S. Lewis' allegory _The Pilgrim's Regress_, he presents the Communists vs. the Nazis as the red ants fighting the black ants in a battle in the northern regions, which represent arid intellectualism.
ReplyDeleteAlso very interesting is that Stalin and Hitler had a pact at one point in the war.
@Anon
ReplyDeleteAn hypothetical "Novus Novus Ordo" compromise mass could bring back some older elements but not necessarily all the Latin or every little gesture in the TLM.
I sympathise with many of the complaints against the Novus Ordo. I've actually left mass on a few occasions when I thought proceedings were verging on the disrespectful. But the thing I worry about the TLM movement is that they seem more concerned with the "show" than the "star". Language is not a red herring, since language is one of the things the TLM movement seem very inflexible on. I think there is an element of the TLM movement that would not compromise at all, seeing any change as a "modernist innovation". Seriously, these guys would hammer Christ for worshiping in Aramaic.
Now, I have been to NO masses where the singing was done in a Gregorian chant with a priest who was orthodox and let me say it was quite moving. The NO can be quite dignified, and I've got a lot of sympathy for some more Latin and ceremony.
And I don't think any of the changes have anything to do with Protestantism, rather the problem lays in theological changes that center on the dignity of the "lowbrow" and vulgar. The theological problem for the liturgical snob is that style is no substitute for authentic worship, on the other hand, the problem for the liturgical prole is that he dresses--and acts--better at his own wedding than at Mass. In other words, he has the capacity for better ritual in other forums than in Church. The whole Pachamama fiasco comes from this school of theology.
Strange case ... a GP who hasn't denounced the democidal mRNA injection. Vichy?
ReplyDelete@Martin
ReplyDeleteI haven't denounced the mRNA vaccine because I support it.
Now don't derail the thread and keep on topic.
Not a derailing, it goes to a certain blindness that otherwise good men succumb too when varieties of zippycatholics "the low man" face anxious ascendent liberalism*liberation. I'll leave you alone once and for all. But for the record some excellent interviews.
ReplyDelete-Youtube 'Norman Dodd on Tax Exempt Foundations'[at 26min founding minutes of Carnegie Endowment "..how to involve US in war"
Professor Sutton "The Best Enemies Money Can Buy' (US funding of Bolsheviks/Nazis)
Related: https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/09/1954-reece-report-showed-foundations-funded-collectivist-capture-of-us-education/ https://www.winterwatch.net/2020/07/physician-who-witnessed-interrogation-of-rakovsky-during-trotskyite-trials-lifts-the-veil-of-the-global-crime-syndicate/
Deplatformed Independent Journalism Whitney Webb details the (eugenic/murderous) activities of these billionaire foundations and 'public*-private' projects today https://www.bitchute.com/video/8QGxRwCMOEcP/
Dr David E Martin deposition to Corona Investigative Committee(CEO of largest underwriter of intellectual property) https://www.bitchute.com/video/xWNF3dKU0kP5/
https://evidencenotfear.com/covid-19-vaccination/
Dr Charles Hoffe 9min on d-dimers test for microclots and organ failure https://www.bitchute.com/video/A6GbcUl6blpJ/
LaGrange has been vindicated. Modern liberal society has degenerated into a disaster far worse than anyone in his era could have imagined. Any western nation is far more morally repugnant than Vichy France ever was, they didn't have pride parades celebrating sodomy did they. Perhaps your issue is your blindness to the current level of corruption and evil that has permeated modern western society underneath all the conveniences it provides.
ReplyDeleteSo the argument is essentially, don't be a trad and trads cannot like RGL because "muh anti-semitism" offends my post-modern ears.
ReplyDeleteSomeone hasn't done a deep dive and just assumes the conventional narrative is correct because of feelings of wanting to go along to get along.
The Church always had not problem with the powers of state to enforce doctrine. Many people will not listen to reasoned arguments or even all the proof in the world, and the church had always believed temporal physical punishment to restore justice and hopefully convert people, to save them from a life after of torment.
There are some people that just cannot be reasoned with, and still go out and cause damage in society through perpetuating false beliefs.
I think LaGrange is a heretic for other reasons, but not for his support of Vichy France.
Don't assume the conventional narrative.
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ReplyDeletewordpress
blogspot
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