tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post3768116588431985657..comments2024-03-28T17:58:56.707+11:00Comments on The Social Pathologist: Some Thoughts on Aesthetics.The Social Pathologisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-62006690639448875502016-06-21T21:43:09.150+10:002016-06-21T21:43:09.150+10:00Arsehole, as we say here in Australia. If you don&...Arsehole, as we say here in Australia. If you don't believe me read his biography. Control freak as well.The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-76530514943657323332016-06-14T16:55:45.251+10:002016-06-14T16:55:45.251+10:00Ok then what are the opinions of Frank Lloyd Wrigh...Ok then what are the opinions of Frank Lloyd Wright? Or is he too an asshole?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09029755566652824796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-91288325964226966172016-06-14T16:55:43.527+10:002016-06-14T16:55:43.527+10:00Ok then what are the opinions of Frank Lloyd Wrigh...Ok then what are the opinions of Frank Lloyd Wright? Or is he too an asshole?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09029755566652824796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-88457785518310035242016-06-14T16:52:24.026+10:002016-06-14T16:52:24.026+10:00Ok then what are the opinions of Frank Lloyd Wrigh...Ok then what are the opinions of Frank Lloyd Wright? Or is he too an asshole?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09029755566652824796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-7801358560693515422013-07-16T07:56:57.030+10:002013-07-16T07:56:57.030+10:00I do think it is a novel re-imagining,
In terms o...<i>I do think it is a novel re-imagining,</i><br /><br />In terms of architecture it is novel but in terms of pre-concieved notions of "churchiness" it is not. This is how I think modern architecture needs to approach the subject of the sacred.<br /><br />Modern architecture by and large inverts this relationship by concentrating on the architecture more than the sacred. <br /><br />I also tend towards simplicity. One of my favourite Churches is <a href="https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1676&bih=897&q=newman+college+chapel+melbourne&oq=newman+college+chapel+melbourne&gs_l=img.3..0i24.1492.5976.0.6145.31.15.0.16.16.1.188.1550.8j7.15.0....0...1ac.1.19.img.M-J4KYBeFQw#facrc=_&imgdii=68qJj7wZACPffM%3A%3B_nolpMdpwB7dqM%3B68qJj7wZACPffM%3A&imgrc=68qJj7wZACPffM%3A%3Bo48AHRf0PQqIbM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F3.bp.blogspot.com%252F-ZsR-Z_DKSxY%252FTwEtiPd7lQI%252FAAAAAAAAB60%252FfsUWzd2FTqM%252Fs1600%252Fbrent_lukey_wedding_exhibition_buildings_809.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.candidweddingphotographymelbourne.com.au%252F2012%252F01%252Flena-and-lukes-wedding-newman-college.html%3B333%3B500" rel="nofollow">this one </a>here in Melbourne.<br /><br />As for music. Nothing beats Gregorian Chant when accompanied by organ. The local Cathedral has a Sunday evening Mass where it is accompanied by plain chant. The effect, especially when the Church is mainly empty is divine. You do really get a feeling of being in a Holy space.<br /><br />I look forward to your articles.<br /><br />The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-51100603409306089422013-07-16T02:27:37.880+10:002013-07-16T02:27:37.880+10:00"Secondly, I wasn't that big a fan of McN..."Secondly, I wasn't that big a fan of McNamara's "Church Theology". I think he trying to read too much into the bible."<br /><br />There was a shorter video that summarized the series that I thought was well-done. I've read a few books on "reading" churches, so his video series was welcome (though at times at odds with what others have said).<br /><br /><br />"I think the question of church aesthetics needs more thought. I think the architecture of a church should convey he impression of holiness and sanctity and I don't think there is any formulaic response to task. One absolutely beautiful church I went to in Croatia, was open air. In that row of deciduous trees formed the roof, with a stone altar at the front and a stone bell tower. The impression it gave was of man and nature worshiping God. It was modern yet traditional and proof that one isn't locked into a particular style to express worship of God.<br /><br />The thing about this church though, is that everyone thought it was beautiful. In other words, its beauty was accessible to everyone, not only to hyperspecialised arts gurus. The Church architect either sticks to forms that work or is judged by whether any novelty in church design conforms to this test."<br /><br />I think people recognize (and appreciate) it as a church due to its adherence to elements of classical forms (even though they may be represented in a "negative space" of sorts). I do think it is a novel re-imagining, in the sense that it removes elements we take for granted in the architecture (walls, roof), but still don't associate with the necessary, distinguishing forms (facade, Romanesque arches, etc). I think I'll add it to my list of places to visit.<br /><br /><br />"The Vatican, for instance, whilst impressive, almost fails the test for me. It's too ornate and distracting whilst Saint Chapelle in Paris is sublime. Some of the baroque Church's whilst beautiful distract from the business end of the faith. Still, these "hyperdecorative" church's express an religious enthusiasm to worship God, even in their excess and are therefore excusable."<br /><br />It's Baroque - I don't think it'll ever appeal to me (it reminds me a lot of the architecture seen in oil-rich countries, that is, tastelessly ornate). Saint-Chapelle, yes, that is a nice church. I think many of the churches in Paris are quite spectacular (and the best thing is that music usually matches - no "rock" Masses at Sacre-Coeur, but chant or chant-like music). I've visited quite a few churches in France, all of which are quite plain in decoration, but still leave me in absolute awe ("height and light" as they say). I tend towards simplicity (Romanesque, most of Gothic, but Rayonnant and Flamboyant test my patience).<br /><br /><br />"What jars with regard to the ugly churches is their inability to convey holiness. I need to devote more thought to the matter but I think I should be able to come up with some intellectual consistent critiques."<br /><br />Well, I think it's a lot like the music played in churches today - it tries to emulate the current period, but as CS Lewis said, "those who keep up with the times, end up where all times go." "Relevancy" is a good sign that something is not right.<br /><br />I find myself looking at (some) churches and trying to see anything "church-like" about them (and failing). I'm reminded of churches like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Bras%C3%ADlia. Abbot Suger was enamored with Gothic, but still recognized it as a "strange region of the universe which neither exists entirely in the slime of the earth nor entirely in the purity of Heaven." I guess we're in too much of the former.MarcusDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746259702527580444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-40468514354333540672013-07-15T11:44:39.463+10:002013-07-15T11:44:39.463+10:00Oh, here are some pictures of the church I mention...Oh, here are some pictures of the church I mentioned.<br /><br />http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=18&with_photo_id=43243792&order=date&user=773091&tag=Autumn<br /><br />http://www.panoramio.com/photo/43243710?tag=Autumn<br /><br />http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=357&with_photo_id=41657731&order=date_desc&user=773091The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-25409336115035011422013-07-15T11:10:00.547+10:002013-07-15T11:10:00.547+10:00@Marcus
Firstly, the new Mount Carmel looks very ...@Marcus<br /><br />Firstly, the new Mount Carmel looks very good. Beautiful in fact.<br /><br />Secondly, I wasn't that big a fan of McNamara's "Church Theology". I think he trying to read too much into the bible.<br /><br />I think the question of church aesthetics needs more thought. I think the architecture of a church should convey he impression of holiness and sanctity and I don't think there is any formulaic response to task. One absolutely beautiful church I went to in Croatia, was open air. In that row of deciduous trees formed the roof, with a stone altar at the front and a stone bell tower. The impression it gave was of man and nature worshiping God. It was modern yet traditional and proof that one isn't locked into a particular style to express worship of God.<br /><br />The thing about this church though, is that everyone thought it was beautiful. In other words, its beauty was accessible to everyone, not only to hyperspecialised arts gurus. The Church architect either sticks to forms that work or is judged by whether any novelty in church design conforms to this test.<br /><br />The Vatican, for instance, whilst impressive, almost fails the test for me. It's too ornate and distracting whilst Saint Chapelle in Paris is sublime. Some of the baroque Church's whilst beautiful distract from the business end of the faith. Still, these "hyperdecorative" church's express an religious enthusiasm to worship God, even in their excess and are therefore excusable.<br /><br />What jars with regard to the ugly churches is their inability to convey holiness. I need to devote more thought to the matter but I think I should be able to come up with some intellectual consistent critiques.<br /><br />If you want to contact me I can be contacted at <br /><br />slumlord at optusnet dot com dot au.<br /><br />The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-70441446697824682192013-07-14T08:12:36.167+10:002013-07-14T08:12:36.167+10:00@ElectricAngel
I'm not sure Hitler liked Neoc...@ElectricAngel<br /><br />I'm not sure Hitler liked Neoclassical so much as a sort of triumphalist architecture. Speer, the architect he (basically) lived vicariously through, vis a vis architecture, was someone predisposed to Bauhaus (by training). <br /><br />The "Welthauptstadt," along with other projects, seems more like Baroque (in intent), but with exaggerated scale, rather than exaggerated ornament. It reminds me of Kenneth Clark's "heroic materialism." <br /><br />----<br /><br /><br />These might be of interest to you, SP:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDWXMMgy9c<br /><br />http://www.mccreryarchitects.com/portfolio/liturgical/new-mount-carmel-of-america/<br /><br /><br />It's interesting how social liberalism also instigates a change in architecture, and [attempted] renewal brings a return to older forms. When they say a church is a "catechism in stone" they aren't kidding.<br /><br /><br />By the way, do you mind sending me an e-mail address I can reach you at? I have a few links and studies I'd like your thoughts on (and which you will likely be interested in).MarcusDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746259702527580444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-54525941051525687912013-07-14T05:25:00.238+10:002013-07-14T05:25:00.238+10:00These might be of interest to you, SP:
http://www...These might be of interest to you, SP:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDWXMMgy9c<br /><br />http://www.mccreryarchitects.com/portfolio/liturgical/new-mount-carmel-of-america/<br /><br /><br />It's interesting how social liberalism also instigates a change in architecture, and [attempted] renewal brings a return to older forms. When they say a church is a "catechism in stone" they aren't kidding.<br /><br />----<br /><br />@ElectricAngel<br /><br />I'm not sure Hitler liked Neoclassical so much as a sort of triumphalist architecture. Speer, the architect he (basically) lived vicariously through, vis a vis architecture, was someone predisposed to Bauhaus (by training). <br /><br />The "Welthauptstadt," along with other projects, seems more like Baroque, but with exaggerated scale, rather than exaggerated ornament. It reminds me of Clark's "heroic materialism." <br /><br /><br />-Marcus<br /><br />(sorry for reposting the comment)<br /><br /><br />By the way, SP, would you mind sending me an e-mail address I can reach you at? I have a few links and studies I'd like your thoughts on (and which you will likely be interested in).MarcusDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746259702527580444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-50032067691311417382013-07-14T04:58:56.845+10:002013-07-14T04:58:56.845+10:00@ElectricAngel
I'm not sure Hitler liked Neoc...@ElectricAngel<br /><br />I'm not sure Hitler liked Neoclassical so much as a sort of triumphalist architecture borrowing from it. Speer, the architect he (basically) lived vicariously through, vis a vis architecture, was someone predisposed to Bauhaus (by training), but frequently gave into Hitler when he demanded something bigger.<br /><br />The "Welthauptstadt," along with other projects, seems more like Baroque (in intent), but with exaggerated scale, rather than exaggerated ornament. It reminds me of Clark's "heroic materialism." The weird thing about the "Volkshalle" was that it would have had it's own micro-climate inside (e.g. weather). MarcusDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746259702527580444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-52229399597105542862013-07-14T04:57:24.332+10:002013-07-14T04:57:24.332+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.MarcusDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746259702527580444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-31370867304243525312013-07-14T04:44:22.284+10:002013-07-14T04:44:22.284+10:00These might be of interest to you:
http://www.you...These might be of interest to you:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDWXMMgy9c<br /><br />http://www.mccreryarchitects.com/portfolio/liturgical/new-mount-carmel-of-america/<br /><br /><br />It's interesting how social liberalism instigates a change in church architecture, and [attempted] religious renewal brings a return to older forms. When they say a church is a "catechism in stone," they aren't kidding.<br /><br /><br />By the way, do you mind sending me an e-mail address I can reach you at? I have a few links and studies I'd like your thoughts on (and which you will likely be interested in).MarcusDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15746259702527580444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-88776942285454881962013-07-12T19:45:18.541+10:002013-07-12T19:45:18.541+10:00@ElectricAngel
I've been away for the week. S...@ElectricAngel<br /><br />I've been away for the week. So my apologies for not getting back to you earlier.<br /><br /><br />I'll have a look at the post and get back to you later.The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-35351632169787939032013-07-11T06:15:21.352+10:002013-07-11T06:15:21.352+10:00I posted some of Jones' writings in a new post...I posted some of Jones' writings in a <a href="http://patriactionary.wordpress.com/2013/07/10/american-genocide/" rel="nofollow">new post</a> over at Patriactionary. Thanks for getting me off my duff, SP.ElectricAngelhttp://patriactionary.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-41339633693641370632013-07-11T01:45:59.463+10:002013-07-11T01:45:59.463+10:00Modern Architecture is uglier, you see, than it ap...Modern Architecture is uglier, you see, than it appears.electricAngelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-68245781096254608202013-07-11T01:44:13.288+10:002013-07-11T01:44:13.288+10:00@drew, SP,
the best explanation I have read on th...@drew, SP,<br /><br />the best explanation I have read on the support for Bauhaus ideas in architecture and public planning comes from James Howard Kunstler's book, The Geography of Nowhere, In a nutshell, we fought WW2 to defeat Hitler. hitler and Stalin like neoclassical architecture, Hitler hated and shut down the Bauhaus. hitler lost, ergo Bauhaus must be correct. It goes on to decry US suburban architecture as creating an alienating, disconnected place of great disaffection. <br /><br />there's another, infuriating book that explains that the alienation was not bad design, but good design. in The Slaughter of Cities, Jones explains that a WASP upper class, in the process of contracepting itself out of existence, realized it had to do something to reduce Catholic fecundity, social capital, and political power that arose from tightly-knit neighborhoods of traditional architecture. so they pushed Bauhaus and urban renewal to destroy Ethnic Catholic enclaves in Northern Cities. this had the beneficial effect of driving up demand for cars and appliances, and also, because the newer houses were not row houses and so cheap to heat and maintain, economically sterilized the Catholics, who now had less in the way of economic resources to pour into children.ElectricAngelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-16330533745913217732013-07-07T07:58:31.705+10:002013-07-07T07:58:31.705+10:00@Drew
They're too sterile for me too. Put th...@Drew <br /><br />They're too sterile for me too. Put them in a glam 60's setting and they don't look too bad. The problem is they're too specific. Traditional architecture weather fashion well as opposed to the modernist stuff which dates and looks bad.<br /><br />The architectural profession does not get enough heat in my opinion and God knows just how miserable they make our lives by providing an environment which is ugly.The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-59043113771828533862013-07-07T00:25:25.641+10:002013-07-07T00:25:25.641+10:00The Eichler homes in the link are too sterile for ...The Eichler homes in the link are too sterile for my taste. And the LSA home reminds me of a form of communist brutalism. We've had some that too.<br /><br />http://tangsphoto.photoshelter.com/image/I0000hhc3Ivs8edw<br /><br />They tore down this 1875 building for that 1960's eyesore. <br />http://www.cityofjoliet.com/images/crthse.jpg<br />Is there anything the boomers and silents didn't ruin?<br /><br />http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/7d3a952d-fe62-463b-92ea-4927f48242f2.JPG<br /><br />http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMA59T_Will_County_Courthouse_and_Joliet_Illinois<br />Drewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-54410849747042837862013-07-06T23:35:21.747+10:002013-07-06T23:35:21.747+10:00@Drew
The house I want to build is similar to th...@Drew <br /><br />The house I want to build is similar to this<br /><br /><i>http://www.picturevictoria.vic.gov.au/site/melbourne/NorthMelbourne/18868.html</i><br /><br />The style is Victorian Italianate. It's very common in the heritage areas of Melbourne. I want the house to blend in with the rest of the streetscape. I've chosen this style because it should be the simplest to reproduce here but you'd be surprised just how much detail there is. Frankly, most architects can't reproduce the style. So I'm going it alone with an architect who is really helpful and not pretentious in anyway.<br /><br />Unfortunately, this sort of stuff gets put into these areas,<br /><br />http://www.decoratingroomdesign.com/beautiful-house-south-yarra-in-melbourne-by-lsa-architects.html<br /><br />Simply awful. I seem some very good modern architecture, but it takes a lot of skill to execute it well. The ugly house in you link looks like a poor copy of an <a href="https://www.google.com.au/search?q=eichler+home&client=firefox-a&hs=05T&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jRzYUaG9IumIiQer84HYAg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1579&bih=920" rel="nofollow">Eichler home.</a> They can be quite stunning homes in the appropriate context, otherwise they look crap. Not to mention that they're hugely wasteful of energy.The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-55061922193560694492013-07-06T01:39:14.049+10:002013-07-06T01:39:14.049+10:00I limit it to 250k+ for review because as our loca...I limit it to 250k+ for review because as our local market gets below that price, the style/utility trade-off starts weighing more in the utility side, and at the cheapest scale everything just turns into boxes that barely fit the property or other random unwanted/poorly maintained pieces.Drewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-25588753925502605942013-07-06T01:35:00.308+10:002013-07-06T01:35:00.308+10:00SP, what style of house are you trying to build? G...SP, what style of house are you trying to build? Got example pics?<br /><br />In the US midwest, since about the 90s new houses in the 250k+ range employ a lot more 'traditional' elements of proportion.<br /><br />Here are a couple examples. <br />Built in '93.<br />http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/622-W-Hickory-Grove-Ct-Dunlap-IL-61525/5106034_zpid/<br /><br />Here is another built in 2000.<br />http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2119-W-Leyna-Dr-Dunlap-IL-61525/64571588_zpid/<br /><br /><br />Both of those examples are very modern, but don't have the ugly proportions of this kind of 1960's "modern" monstrosity...<br />http://www.remax.com/realestatehomesforsale/6038-n-knoxville-peoria-il-61614-gid600015060279.html<br /><br /><br />But I suppose it depends on how traditional and far back you want to go.Drewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-61446795867533397252013-07-05T10:03:03.787+10:002013-07-05T10:03:03.787+10:00@Drew
I'm in house building mode. I'm tr...@Drew <br /><br />I'm in house building mode. I'm trying to get a traditional house (New old house) built, in a traditional neighbourhood built but its hard. Both the building codes and architectural profession are resisting it. There seems to be this unholy alliance at forcing contemporary stuff into traditional areas.<br /><br />@Heythatsmycar<br /><br />Modern town planning is a disaster. Jan Jacobs wrote the definitive text. I recently went to a lecture by Professor Gehl, an expert in the rejuvination of cities. Basically his message was that of Jacobs but still the profession doesn't get it.<br /><br />His professional developement was interesting. He started off as another "save the world" architect but what changed his view was his marriage to a psychologist. She continually complained to him that his town planning designs based upon aesthetic prinicples rather than human need. She would complain to him that he designed "as if people didn't matter." It took a while but he got the hint.The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-14349506330065030422013-07-05T09:50:46.424+10:002013-07-05T09:50:46.424+10:00How are you going to judge which "human natur...<i> How are you going to judge which "human nature" is the basis from which to judge what is proper and what is not? </i><br /><br />I'm not here to make declarative statements on which is the best art as determined by my analysis of human nature, rather, that the human response to art is a valid critique of it. For example, if an artist puts up a shitty sculpture in the middle of the town and people want to tear it down because its ugly, I think there is a certain validity to the sentiment. Instead, what we have today is this sort of shit forced down our throats because clearly "we don't get it." The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29137904.post-20938136216680646482013-07-04T16:17:19.714+10:002013-07-04T16:17:19.714+10:00And perhaps our argument against modern art should...<i>And perhaps our argument against modern art shouldn't be an argument about what is morally right or wrong but about what pleases human nature and what doesn't.</i><br /><br />Are you retarded? Death Metal, modern art, Bukowski, minimalist architecture, these things are all pleasurable to some subset of people, and abhorrent to other subsets. How are you going to judge which "human nature" is the basis from which to judge what is proper and what is not? This isn't even half thought through.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com